Author Topic: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....  (Read 15398 times)

Sudhakar_old

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2007, 07:39:47 PM »

Regarding Raama killing a sudra in Ramayana:
This is taken from Uttara Ramayana. According to Tulasi das and Sri Aurabindo, Uttara Ramayana was not written by Valmiki and is not standard. So we need not believe that story. It also goes against many incidents of people of all castes in ancient times doing tapas and becoming realised. Ramayana ends with pattabhisheka of Rama. I think this is the reason why telugu movie by Bapu, "Sampoorna Ramayana" ends with Pattabhisheka and the name is given as "sampoorna" meaning complete ramayana.

-Sudhakar

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2007, 07:02:52 AM »
Sudhakar garu,

Thank you for the input.Uttara Ramayana is also the story of Sri Rama sending Sitamma to the forest hearing the words of a washerman.The story of LAVA KUSA and I think what you have said is true.We need not take that story into consideration.

with regards
kiran

ananthbabladi_old

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2007, 04:45:50 PM »
Ravi/Kiran garu, Jai Sai Master!!

Looks like this thread will never end. I am not saying this with pre-conceived notion about anybody or anything.

My final statement is, I still don't agree with you, on any of your points. And I also know that you will say the same thing. You don't agree any of my points. This will go on like an endless cycle. But We (we in the sense, I am not telling about you...but in general) MUST believe an authority written by Mahatmas. I said "MUST" only in viewpoint of myself and Sri Guru Charitra is written by a Mahatma about God HIMSELF. And like you said, it could be written by a Pro-Brahmin and mis-interpreted!! I dare not say that. I am a kind of person who takes by face value, and test it out. Until I experience it for myself. You are saying that it is wrong, and I Am sure you know the responsibilities of owning that statement.

Some soul-questions for you, which I necessarily need not read. You yourself ask those questions.

1) The very basis and features of the caste system are misinterpreted by you, unfotunately, by the vast injustices done to non-brahmins. This is done in the 21st century. You will say, it is done in the past time too, but again, I refuse to believe it. My belief is based on Take good first, and then bad later. My belief is to take any theory with blind eyes, test it out, prove it that it is bad/sad/indifferent/and devious. If I can't test it out, I have no right to ask it/question it. The same science example is the best one. So,how do you believe? Please don't tell me, please don't tell this forum. Ask your heart.

This is not my pre-concevied notion about you or about this thread, but all we discussed here is just caste-system, instead of the very same caste system describing about our Dharma to be followed.

2) You feel agitated, angry, disgruntled, about the atrocius things done to non-brahmins through Brahmins and feel that Brahmins are not above anything or anybody. This particular point is the cornerstone of your discussion. In my previous posts, I told that any atrocius things done are the direct result of power. The things done, either by a Brahmin on a non-brahmin, muslim on a Hindu, whatever....they are not to be called as Brahmins or Muslims or whatever. They don't belong to any caste or religion.

For me, what ever caste I belong to, I will still stick to an authority, and TEST IT OUT. According to my Karma, I will receive inner transformation by God through a Sadguru when the time is ripe. Till then WHATEVER HAPPENS, I know for sure that this WORLD is watching over me to push me towards my Sadguru. IT may take this birth, or it may take a trillion years. But when the time is ripe, then all the castes are transcended. Until that time, I will go through the caste system, which are study books for me. If I have to go through the indifferences, so be it. My Sadguru is watching over me.

What about you? Are you willing to test it out? Like SaiUttamPallavi garu said, just after reading a couple of times, you got so many doubts. Maybe if you keep reading, BUT read with inquisitive and questionable mind, not just asking questions with your burning state of mind about non-brahmins being in a deplorable state because of Brahminism, one day, either you will believe Guru Charitra completely, or if you are one of those persons who will see God and then you yourself will know for sure that caste system is wrong, and then you announce the world that it is bad. Can you do that? Because you believe Baba, and Baba asked us to read Guru Charitra, He did not say, remove the caste sytem pages from that book and read other chapters. He simply said "Read Guru Charitra". That's it. For me, Baba, Master and other Mahatmas are all authority. They have seen God and become one with God. Until they make me experience anything, I will believe it. If I don't, I will work towards proving them wrong. Why? For the simple reason, that time works differently. If I ask blindly I don't want to believe that or I will discard that, it is not going to work. Also will not work is the theory that God should make me see RIGHT now, because I am not ready. Case in point is 1) God cannot insert a 1000 watts energy into a 100 watts bulb. 2) Your favourite Sai Leelamrutam Abbas seth asks why are you roaming like a mad man, and the mahatma, throws an invisible punch, and this guy becomes a mad man, because he is not able to take that much of power. So, I will wait. When Mahatmas are there with their Knowledge and their scriptures and their books and vast lessons, I don't need to fear. They will even prescribe which I don't like. I will not say, this is wrong. What about you? Are you willing to go that far when a Mahatma asks you to believe Guru Charitra AS A WHOLE????

3) Your answer about not taking the word "reinstatement" in "normal worldly" things should not be applied to life situations...hmm!! I cannot take that either. For me, (when I say about myself, I Am sure every devotee of Master will agree with me) everything in this "normal worldly place" is a means to learn something and reach God. Edi Nijam written by Master garu talks at a particular place about a simple thing like Sofa, being built with Electrons, Protons, Neutrons and then into Atoms. But among the most fundamental level, when the electrons are tightly packed and so densely (because Sofa being a a concrete thing, not like water) coupled, but still, the space between two electrons is immense, and eventually, the Quantum Science did say that that electron is not there at all. So, the Sofa that we sit on, is not there at all if you go to the Quantum level. And I am not saying I don't believe in Sofa. For that, I read other books too. Not because Master said it wrong, but because I was inquisitive and wanted information.

So, for me, this whole world is a learning place, with the help of Mahatmas, the books they wrote, the misinterpretations as understood by ordinary persons like me and you, the systems that they created (eve now, I will still say, God created it!!!) and the word "reinstatement". When I don't understand the system, yes, I might blame it.

So, what about you?

So, the bottomline is, let's not waste time in idle dilly-dallying about who is wrong and which one you should believe and which one you should not. Let's go to the most fundamental level of Science. THEORY & Proof. Or will you say you won't believe that too? For sane condistions, let's say, we have a theory, and then we need proof.

FIRST THEORY: Guru Charitra is a complete manuscript written by a Mahatma to realize God through Sadguru. I said complete, because it also theorizes about caste System. So, our target is, to prove in 2 ways. A) Don't believe it (as in you), then you set about proving it in whatever terms you think is right of. But I won't say you proved it, until you are a realized Mahatma. In these days, a word like MAhatma is given cheap interpretation, I know the sure fire way, to believe in a Mahatma. Master said, a true Mahatma will appear in our dreams, to say whether something is good or bad. So, I will wait till you become a Mahatma (having known that Caste System is wrong, through God) and then appear in my dreams. You have to prove that caste system is that much wrong, and you have to go that far to prove it.

B) Believe it (as in me and many devotees of Master). For that I will prove it too! how? Since I do believe Guru Charitra, I will keep on reading and reading and reading...in this life, next, and the next, until I myself become a Mahatma, which I am sure will take nex trillion years, and then I will come to you (whereever you are in this universe) and then tell you that Guru Charitra is the right one, with all the contents!!!!

Theory TWO: the exact opposite of the FIRST ONE, Guru Charitra is NOT a complete manuscript. Again, two proofs!! And again, you don't believe it completely, and I believe it completely (blindly if you say so...) and again you and I set about proving it!!!!

What do you say? Should we do that? This way we don't unnecessarily discuss something which will not help us reach our goal (of realizing God) but infact, it will throw us away from it.

Apart from that, I have no more answers to your questions, because "Belief" word itself is based on what we cannot see even single-dimensionally. Your belief on the non-existence of Caste System is single-dimensional, and mine is too. The only difference is, you don't believe and I believe, and only time will tell, when you will start believing or I stop believing it.

I will stop now, with again Babu garu's signature,
"A diligent study of lives of saints, their acts and teachings would educate all aspirants to transcend the vicious, narrow barrier of religion and race and identify a true Sadguru." -- Master E.B.

Jai Sai Master!

Thanks a lot to all for this thread!!
Ananth



ananth babladi
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Jai Sai Ram
Jai Sai Master
Jai Sai Swamy

ravifrom_old

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2007, 04:46:17 PM »

Jai Sai master...
Anant Garu..,

Time will tell and will answer a lot of these questions.I am really not angry with any caste but these are things that I have read from various books.I could have been wrong.


Since you quote Sai Master and Sai Baba I will not argue any more.

God they say is nothing but truth.Truth alone will truimph in the end.
I will accept any truth with open arms as its my salvation.That is my answer to all your questions.

Thank you for your replies.

with regards and love

kiran

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2007, 04:46:33 PM »
Jai Sai Master!

I am currenty translating parts of Master's Purusha Sukta Rahasyam to put in here in this forum to enhance our understanding. I would request you to go through it if you find time. It answers all the questions in this regard, IMO.

I am also going through other books like Yoga Vasishtyam (since you believe in Ramayana) to see where (if any) there is a reference to the caste system and what it says about it.

Ofcourse, Krishna (If you accept Him and Bhagavatgita as authority) says it plainly. But I would wait for you to accept whether I should use it as a reference here.

What I am trying to do, over all, is to get a complete picture for myself. I just found a wonderful questioner in you who has a different angle than I have and are bringing up questions that I might not have. So, I would request a continuation of this discussion for betterment of us.
Although, from the very first, I have been sayinng that we need an "Authority" to solve this issue, I feel that whether it is solved or not, it is an opportunity for us to understand things better and so request a continuation of a debate, so that once that AUTHORITY is found, I could as better questions (If they dont get solved here).

All in all, I would point out two things.

1) All is truth, worldly ness is ignorance and should be shunned.
2) Worldlyness is a hinderance to spirituality.
3) Differentiations in society shouldnt be there, since at a soul level, there is no differentiation..

All these arguments dont stand for some one who is still in the society and enjoying the fruits of such divisions. For example, some one sitting and eating what a farmer produced shouldnt say that farmers and others are same and so on... They should say that farmer is a farmer and since I see him thus and since I dont see him at the soul level right now because of ignorance, I have the duty to fulfill my dharma towards him and the rest of the society.
Such following of Dharma requires a qualified Sadguru to teach. Many such Sadgurus are ancient Rishis that prescribed caste system (Not the rotten middle age version of it). and Lord Krishna Himself said that He created Chaturvarnya based on Guna and Karma. Such classifications tell us how to act in the society in a Dharmic fashion.

Ofcourse, I need to mention here, that Vedas dont preach that one caste is greater than the other.. It just says that there are four of them. You can read Purusha Sukta Rahasyam by Master for clarification (Introduction as well as following the slokas till Brahmanosya mukham asit... and after).

Anyways.. I agree with Ananth and Uttampallavi that this is a never ending debate. But it already made me think about an issue that I might have thought about from that angle.. and in that view, this thread is a boon for me. So, if you dont mind, lets please continue.

Here I have a couple of questions for you.. I expect some direct answers so that the debate can have a foundation of understanding.

1. What is Dharma.
2. What is Swadharmacharana.
3. Why do them if all is one at the soul level.
4. Should we act righteously or not and should we fulfill our responsiblities or not. If we say we should, please explain wheter you think recognizing responciblities is an "intellectual" and "worldly" thing in your words, as opposed to the truth that all is one which is "experiential". If your answer is YES we should recognize the responsiblities, then do you accept that there is a role of intellect (worldly in your words) in Sadhana or not.
If your answer is that recognizing responsibliteis is not intellectual.. please explain how I can recognize my own duties as a citizen or as a family member without using intellect and "worldly" comparisons.

Thank you for the great question once again..

Jai Sai Master!


Dwarakanath

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2007, 04:46:56 PM »


Jai Sai Master!

Dwarakanath Garu...Namaskaram..!

I really thought that you were fed up with me. 

One should approach the scriptures with the heart of a kid not with the heart of a samsari.

Because with the heart of a sansari we try to use the scriptures for our benifit and try to hide our weakness quoting passeges in them.

To tell you about Ramayana one has to see that Rama is a avatar of Vishnu and he came to this world to burn his karma.Just like you and me.

He is a god with gunas just like you are a man with gunas.

It appears very controversial but actually its not so.

The god with out gunas is above all the gods that we know of and is above all the karmic ties.That is what is called parabrahma which is the final comparision after comparing the Guru to Brahma,Vishnu and Maheswara.This power is what is menifests in all the Gods and all the living beings.

To reach this heightest level one has to leave the samsara.For the other Gods normal poojas and bhakti ,tapassu and gnanam will do.That is one needs to leave all the swadharmas and have a sama bhava.One has to leave all the learning and all the scriptures and unlearn.

For a person who is to reach that ultimate reality he or she has to leave the swadharma.This i say because swadharma makes you to do karma and binds you to this world.for example a khsatriya will be in the process of enimity with some one or the other and its impossible for him to move ahead (as told in the Sri Guru Charitra ) to a higher level of that of a brahmana.

Same is the case of a chanadala who perhaps kills animals to feed his stomach.This killing brings him to the cycle of birth and deaths and to more heena janmas.The same is the case of a khatriya who kills in a war.
He will have heena janma too to break his karmic ties.

The swadarma with a god in our midst to some extent burns this bad karma but it will take you to the realms of the trimurthis only.

The areas of the trimurthis are brahma lokam,vaikuntam and kailash which are occupied by the three GODS who we know so well.But they are simply in those positions and not the ultimate reality.For example the work of Brahma dev is like the work of a sculptur.HE makes the bodies of men just like a kummari(a potter) makes the the pots and keeps aside.
The work of vishnu is to see that dharma is established and that the world is ever growing and protected.The work of shiva is to destroy this world in pralayas.Just like this world is destroyed in pralayas those lokas will also be destroyed by maha pralayas.

Those who pray to the trimurthis with stead fast devotion will enter those worlds and stay their till their punya is over and come back to this world in the end.That we can see in the sai leelamrutam too.This aspect is not known to most people.

The three gods with gunas are like you and me.They have wives and children and finally they also have egos.They fight and argue among themselves because they have gunas.
The gods are bound by the karmic ties just like you and me.There is a story of Shiva running away from shani maha dev to escape his bad period.

When vishnu was with laxmi devi shani maha dev comes to him and says mahaprabho i have some caluclations to show you'
vishnu says' yes but those are for me to be taken over in the bhooloka.Very soon i will be born as Sri Rama and will walk the face of the earth and suffer my bad karma'.


It really does not mean that we should not pray to these gods because real liberation can be got with them too like Sri Ramakrishna paramahamsa did.But it is very very difficult.

That is where a Real Sad Guru comes into picture.He is above all the Gods because he has seen the parabrahma in himself.There is no turning back for him.And he is qualified to take us out of this world but we should have faith and the intrest to do it.It requires a lot of patience and intrest to leave this world which people because of their agnana will not have.

They will try to find ways to enter heaven or those places of istadaiva but if we are pure in our heart the istadaiva will actually show us our Poorna Guru.
The question of swadharma is there only till the question of caste is there.Once we renounce our caste all the dharmas are ours only.

Sri Krishna says that he created the classes but does not as far as i know differentiate.So the sudhras being his feet could mean that they are actually more important to him than the brahmanas whom he compares to his head.

Because for all humans the ultimate point of contact are the feet of the GOD.This vese was used to discriminate and to establish the four classes based on birth in the middle ages.They wrote books and altered the existing ones because the education was with the priviledged class and the others were powerless to question.

Any one who has valour is a khstriya.But if he sticks to it and does his work with nishkama he will reach one of the trilokas or the swarga but I dont think he will ever be free.That is why they used the sanyasa ashrama in the end to know the truth.He has to leave his swadharma.

In the Mahabharata there is a story.Dharmaraja after killing his enemies does a big Yagna.After the yagna a bell with out a tongue(naluka leni ganta) should ring showing that the yagna has been accepted by the gods.

This bell dosent ring.

This worries Dharamaraja a lot so he goes to SRI Krishna.

Krishna says 'Dharmaraja you invited every great man and every maharshi to this yagna but you didnt invite a maharshi who is a very realised soul because he is from the Sudhra Caste'.

It is then that drupati goes to that Sudhra monk with our her slippers and feeds him.The bell finally rings

stories like these were never brought into prominence.

A brahmin is not a Guru as far as I can think.He is just like one of the four castes.He has his duties WHICH again are not based on his birth.

NO caste is based on birth.and in my personal opinion no caste is based on gunas either because all the gunas are there in all the people all through the ages..and also in all the gods .

It is based on profession which people choose for themselves.

Dharma as such is not a means of liberation.It ensures the smooth flowing of the society.Dharma actually changes from yuga to yuga.

The verse eppudaite dharmamu tappi adarmamu perugutundo in bhagawata geeta should not be confused with here.

The dharma in this verse above taken from Geeta is the Dharma of Vishnu and it is about people restricting others from not worshipping their god of choice.Or say where people are so much in maya that no one prays to god at all and become very cruel.
that type of dharma is timeless.

The other type of swadharma is not timeless it keeps changing from time to time.
.One has to grow above that kind of dharma(like a kshatriya leaves for forest leaving his enimity and his kingdom.)

Now over the ages people got confused about these two dharmas.Those laid for the functioning of the people(which change from time to time) and those that govern the avatars( which dont change from time to time).

So when a sudra for example did a yagna they somehow felt that Gods rule has been voilated and wrote stories about Sri Rama killing sudra for doing a YAGNA.
This story is not true and has been inserted by vested intrests.

Because going by the same rule the sudra in mahabharat should have been killed by Sri krishna.He didnt do that.This is a contradiction and such contradictions are there in almost all the books of our religion.Only a SADGURU CAN tell us the scriptures only for this reason.


There are many contradictions in scriptures because of the insertion new verses by selfish people.

That differentiation can be done by a poorna Guru only.But then even the scriptures are just like words which we use here and are useless when compared with the ultimate reality.

even bhudda could not describe it and called it suchness.

But scriptures are read and Gurus tell us to read because to a large extent it helps our ever wandering mind to think about this reality.If we merely recite scriptures with out showing intrest it will be of no use.

The ancient rishis did not present the caste system.It is a difficult thing to tell you that.The maharshis were from all the professions(which you can call caste in your terms).The maharshis of other professions other than the profession of the temple priests were never brought into prominence and those(sudhra maharshis) who were very prominent were made into brahmins just like people tried to make shiridi sai into a brahmin.

That is why i am against reinstatement.


The classifications dont tell us to behave in a dharmic fasion.They tell us to differentiate and discriminate.They come from people in the middle who wanted to ensure their dominence.

The vedas dont preach any dominence of any caste but i think that they never preached the caste system.If there are verses like that in the vedas you will certainly find some contradictory verse somewhere suggesting the insertion in between by some vested intrests.

(1. What is Dharma. )

I have answered the answer above.It is worldly.It is a duty.Even Gods are bound by it like a karmic influence over a man.It has to be broken to reach God.
That which changes is swadharmacharana which changes within every yuga.That which binds God is Dharma of a yuga which is mostly unchanging.

ALL THE men of all the professions can take up any dharma they want.They have to discard it in the end to reach GOD.It is wrong to say like ananth garu has said that they are roles given to us by God.

(2. What is Swadharmacharana. )

It is like the seeds of a fruit.Like sai baba has said not all of them will be fruits as it has its dharma.It is determined by karma and gods grace.NOT BY scriptures or some birth or by some rule.It was in the fate of chanikya to have a kingly demeanour.The role of his was determined by his fate and that is swadharmacharana according to me.

(3. Why do them if all is one at the soul level.)

ALL IS NOY ONLY ONE AT THE SOUL LEVEL BUT ALSO AT THE HUMAN LEVEL.

This is the basis of all religions.Of all paths.

We follow them to make a living in this world in a fair manner.The word fair manner means that if a person chooses to be a merchant because of his intellect and because of his demeanour then he can be a merchant but still he should be praying to God and still he should be not cheating.

This swadharmacharana helps him to burn bad karma.To burn his good karma and bad together he has to in the end renounce this world.

Because just as bad karma is like a iron shackles good karma is like a golden shakles.They will bring you back to this world to make you enjoy your fruits and that can only be burned by renouncing this world.

This renounciation will make the nature understand that your good karma is now not needed for enjoyment of earthly things(because you have renounced this world in this life only) and so that karmic force will go in the realisation of God from then on.

(Should we act righteously or not and should we fulfill our responsiblities or not. If we say we should, please explain wheter you think recognizing responciblities is an "intellectual" and "worldly" thing in your words)

It is important to define righteousness here.Look at others from others point of view.EMPHATY IS THE BASIS OF ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS.

That means that one should put oneself in the others shoes and try not to do to others what you dont want to be done to yourself.

To treat others as you want yourself to be treated.

Yes we should act righteously.We should fulfill our responsibilities too.Till the call comes for us to leave this earth.Recognising responsibilities is worldly and to recognise them and to do those responsibilites we use intellectual capabilities given to us by god.

(then do you accept that there is a role of intellect (worldly in your words) in Sadhana or not. )

Intellect has nothing to do with sadhana.

Intellect tries to measure and tries to understand things from the worldly perspective.

sadhana is not to sharpen the intellect but to subdue it.

That is why i said that we should approach the ways of god like a small child.

Because if we try to go to god as a grown up men we tend to use our intellect.That intellect will try to measure..will increase your ego and will try to understand and reason.

Intellect in sadana will not let you move forward.Unless we get rid of it.

The world is about measurements.It is about counting.It is aboiut things which we see with our naked eye.
Spirituality is about that which cannot be reasoned with this intellect of ours.It is limitless and cannot be explained with the terms which intellect normally uses to explain the things of this world.

I hope I have given my point of view to you clearly.

Thank you for not being angry with me because of the earlier opinions of mine

with love and regards

kiran.

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Dwarakanath

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2007, 04:47:18 PM »
Jai Sai Master!

Dear Ravigaru,

Do you accept Bhagavatgita as Authority? Can I quote it? or not? and can I quote Master? or shall I stick to scriptures?

Jai Sai Master!

Dwarakanath

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2007, 04:47:33 PM »
Dwarakanadh Garu...

Please quote ...I would like to learn from it.

With regards

Kiran.

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2007, 04:47:53 PM »
Jai Sai Master!!

Ravi garu,

I would like to point out to you some points which you quoted in your previous post.

1) The mention of Sudra from Ramayana and MAhabharata, where once recognized and once killed, I feel that you comparing the 2 situations. Rama & Krishna, though, both avatars of Vishnu, had different situations. You cannot compare one to the other. There are lots of factors involved in it (although I should say, I haven't read it, you seemed to be a man of knowledge, and I take it as it is, that ..that portion is there in the books you read) like Karma of each Sudra in that situation, Dharma they are following, the situation they arrived in, the present Karma they are following at that moment, and the future lives that they are going to take which will be taken care of by Rama & Krishna respectively. Not just you, but anybody cannot compare two situations created by Gods themselves, because we can incur any way we want, according to our vaasanas, our bookish knowledge, and our egos. Being Humans, we will take what is good and what is bad according to our likes and dislikes, just like you did and I did. You just cannot say, vested interests added some text to a sacred scripture.

2) Could you please define intellect for me one more time? And after having defined, if Intellect is "worldly" and that Spiritual is otherwise, how would you know Spirituality? How in the sense, like for example, God says try to know the answer to Materializing and -dematerializing (maayam avvadamu, mallee raavadam..something like Beam me up scotty)...then how would you learn it? Mind you this is a mixture of Spirituality and Science. Once you get the power of dematerializing and back, you don't use it, it just happens. So, how would you try to know it? How would you learn it? I used this example, because Intellect is that thing with which Spirituality can be known. One of the many features of Intellect. And I have been observing that you are discarding Intellect from the very beginning. Or do you say you won't agree with me? If not, then I woould like to know how you would know God!! Through what medium?

3) Empathy is the basis of all Righteousness!! Agree and Disagree! Empathy is one of the features of Righeteousness. Being a King, you might have to kill a person, being a person, you cannot kill the same person, but you are both in an instant, what would you do? You have to follow righteousness, and then empathy does not follow you. Empathy follows the person that you are but not the king.

4) You said Sadhana is not to sharpen intellect but to subdue it, again, I would like to ask you to define more clearly what is intellect, and also, if indeed your answer is same again, then how would you learn/increase yor sadhana? My main question in all these points is, taking out "Intellect" as wordly, how would you learn and go higher up ? Hope you will answer me Ravi garu.

Everything else, I am eagerly waiting for Babu garu and your counter points to see, how far this thread would go. Because I haven't read mush books. Most of my knowledge is a direct result of reading only Master's books, and many many science and meta physical books which I am thrilled to say, are in 100% alignment to what Master garu said. And I pray Master garu to guide us to the proper culmination of this thread, so that each of us merge into one single dominion of an idea (which I am sure is a point in the scripture).

Jai Sai Master!
Ananth


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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2007, 04:48:13 PM »
Jai Sai Master!

Ananth Garu,

1) The reason why I told about God with Guna and the highest power(parabrahma) which is without form or name (and without gunas) is to tell how this power is manifest in all creatures ....even in the Gods we know.Even in me and you.

Rama and Krishna even though Gods have no right over you and me.They cannot kill in the name of dharma.

To do their swadharma they also did karma and were bound by it.They were not above it.

(Swadharma here is some work for which your temperment suits and that you have to do to gain meterial things of this world.It can be changed from dharma to another because temperment also changes along with time.)

The Gods suffered because of their worldly bodies and the desires that were produced because of their gunas.Their Greatness lies in doing their work with as much fairness as it was possible for them.That does not mean they were not wrong in jurdgement.That they were not wrong in their deeds.

The story of vali is a case to point.

Vali was the monkey king and sugreeva was his brother.

Vali was fighting a rakshasa in a cave and because of this war blood starts to flow outside the cave.Sugreva (the monkey kings younger brother who is waiting outside the cave) thinks that his elder brother is dead , blocks the cave with a big stone (to stop the rakshasa from comming out) and goes back to valis kingdom and occupies the throne.

He marries valis wife(his elder brothers wife) and starts ruling the kingdom.Vali meanwhile kills the rakshasa after a 6 month fight and finds that the entrance of the cave is blocked with a huge stone.He assumes that sugreva has purposefully blocked the cave to take over his kingdom and his wife.He comes back and beats his younger brother black and blue and exiles him out of his kingdom.

Sugreva takes the help of Rama and Rama shoots an arrow from behind a tree to valis back and wounds him fatally.

Vali then after he has fallen to ground asks Rama 'why did you kill me with adharma'.If you wanted to kill me you could have done it from before me instead of behind me'.

Rama gives a lot of reasons some of them being that you were very cruel ..you married your brothers wife when he is alive etc'.
Sugreva says 'yes I married but you are human and i am an animal.In our clan it is allowed by the creator to have conjugal relations even among relatives and the rules that are applied to you because you are a human wont apply to me'.

Because of this deed ....Rama was born as Krishna.

Sugreva was born as a huntur in his next life and thinking that Krishnas toe was a deers mouth he shoots an arrow and kills him.

or to put it mildly becomes an instrument for the death of an avataar.

For the almighty which is above all the avataars you and I are as precious as a small grasshopper is too.

Jesus says in the bible 'You can buy two birds for a rupee.Not even one of them will be forgotten before the Almighty'.

So the question is did Rama kill the sudra who did the yagna or not.

It has been told by Sudhakar garu that it is a story of later times.That even Sri Aurbindo agreed to it.From the book UTTAR RAMAYANA.

Now if that is not insertion what is.

I as a human can do yagna yagas just as any brahmin can.Swadharma ullangana by another caste dosent arise.

If it does ...it is wrong.Its cruel.

HERE IS ANOTHER CONTRADICTION FOR YOU.

ASHWADDAMA WAS a brahim who fought wars.

Now IF Aswaddama who is a brahmin can change his swadharma and fight a war as a khsatriya why cant a sudra change his swadharma and conduct an yagna?.

What is the sin in it.

You mean anant garu that god actually told maharshis...that it is right to pour hot oil into the ears of a sudhra if he happens to hear a Mantra?.

I will not believe it no matter which authority tells me so.

So my case still stands.

Now the question of INTELLECT.

Intellect is buddi.The senses(our five senses) present the objects to the intellect and it turn displays them before the purusha.It is like a medium between outer organs and the self (which you have to realise)

ALL sensations and ideas are presented to the intellect which in turn presents them to the prurusha.

You are mistaking spiritual expirience with worldly expirience.You are thinking that just like you see a film on a tv or read a magazine you will also expirience God.

May be you can expirience and see a god or an avatar with a form like that but i am talking of the bliss that the supreme parabrahma(which is formless) gives.

It is difficult to explain this but I read once and I will give an example from it.

Like listening to a joke.When some one tell s you a good joke for example the last sentence of that person is the height of funnyness and till then you who are listening to the joke seriously all of a sudden it strikes you and you burst out laughing.
Like a spark it registers somewhere and you get the joke.

Enlightement is like that.No analysis of mind and intellect will be there.

Normal worldly intellect( or dull intellect as you can put it) ---when it is in a desciple even though it recognises interior reality of spiritual education does not give up delusion.
The desciple externally though his actions will supress mental action, internally he will crave for sense objects that will gratify his body and give him pleasure.
One cannot use that kind of intellect that has been conditioned by social mores to help one realise.We close our eyes and concentrate at brukuti by taking all our life force between our eyebrows because we want to subdue the mind and intellect.

This mayam avvadam etc that you have told any normal magician can do.Tell me how will your mind differentiate a fake magicial from the act of God?.

You have to use intellect which will misguide you.It is intellect and mind combination that will make you to expect that a sadhguru should have so and so qualities.That he should be a hindu ...with orange robes..he should have long beard ...he should be a brahmin etc.

and when a fake magician comes with all these above expectaion of your mind you will believe his tricks as the miracle of God.

If a muslim fakir who is a realised soul does those miracles your very mind and intellect d will say that he is a fake magician.

It is intellect that will try to tell you to expect these things where as mind will analyse the information that it gives.

You are nothing but the bundle of thoughts that the intellect and mind put before you.

Think about the above statement.

Once those thoughts stop you will know God.All this is atleast the theory.


About your views on Righteousness.

Your views are in the brackets

(Being a King, you might have to kill a person, being a person, you cannot kill the same person, but you are both in an instant, what would you do? You have to follow righteousness, and then empathy does not follow you. Empathy follows the person that you are but not the king. )

The question now is why does a man want to be a king.Surely it brings to him a certain glory and wealth and lot of physical and mental gratification.

now a king who kills in the line of duty will he be free from the karma he has committed.NO...He is bound by it.

Righteousness here is emphaty oriented and it will look at not at your deed but your intention.Now a king will kill in anger or to stop someone from burning a house.The result for both have to be faced by the king only one will be milder and another will be harsher.

I hope i have managed to explain to you clearly this time.


with regards

kiran.


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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2007, 04:48:35 PM »
Jai Sai Master!

Ravigaru,

I would like to ask you to read this ( foreword to PurushaSukta Rahasyam ) by Master.

http://www.geocities.com/ongolesai/psr1.htm

Then this from the same book :

http://www.geocities.com/ongolesai/psr6.htm

Those pages talk about the origination of Varnas. Please read it carefully.

About Rama :

Ramayana says that Rama is Vishnu acting like a human. Also, Rama's situation before and after Yogavasishtyam explain that He already attained one of the highest states of spirituality. Also, Ramayanam mentions that Rama had heightened Sattwa Guna and that He never had an attack of Tamo Guna.

Thus, Rama, although from our point of view, is seen as a human, He is mostly incomparable to the likes of us who are more or less full of Rajo and Tamo Guna and Sattwa Guna rising occassionally. Please dont say that He is "Just like us". He is not just like us in the sense that He has attained the highest in Sadhana (read Yogavasistyam), even if we say that He was born like us. Rama followed Dharma. Krishna followed Swadharma too. Not only that, Krishna said that any Karma done with SattwaGuna leads to Him and He is such Karma, just like He is the Viswa and He is the Purusha.

Now, Krishna didnt differentiate. All classes are equal to God. None is better than the other. I accept. But surely, there are classes. No point in denying that since Krishna Himself said He created them.

One important thing for you to think is this..

You said :
The ancient rishis did not present the caste system.It is a difficult thing to tell you that.The maharshis were from all the professions(which you can call caste in your terms).The maharshis of other professions other than the profession of the temple priests were never brought into prominence and those(sudhra maharshis) who were very prominent were made into brahmins just like people tried to make shiridi sai into a brahmin.

How do you know this? How do you know that Sudra Maharshies were made into Brahmins? Any Rishi, by definition is a Brahmin (Brahmamunandu charinchu vadu). Please read the above links I gave. You will understand that even women and Sudras were allowed to read Vedas. Vedas are told by Rishis to the world. How can you say that Rishis didnt present the Caste system? I need explaination here for your statement. I think it is totally baseless, but I might be wrong. Please provide how you know the above.. from any reliable source or is it just your imagination? True, modern corrupt people tried to make Sai as Brahmin..But ancient rishis were not like that. Rishis were Mahatmas. If they did do like you said, then there is no argument at all.. If Mahatmas agree to caste system, there is no point in arguing that it is wrong. You might say that Rishis got angry and so they are not Mahatmas. Their anger is blessing, just like Baba's is. Rishis are respected by Trimurthis themselves. Even if you say that they arent Mahatmas and only Brahmarshis were Mahatmas, even then you must agree that Vyasa ( highest of Rishis ) and Vasistha (Highest of Brahmarshis) respected each other and they are the back bone of our Vedas and Puranas which mention the Varnasrama. They both are definitely Mahatmas by any stretch of imagination. Since they cant be wrong, caste system cant be wrong. Only that we, the corrupt humans from middle ages uptil now are wrong in utilizing the system in a wrong way. Matam enduku makes this point clear and so does Purusha sukta Rahasyam.

You said :
Dharma as such is not a means of liberation.It ensures the smooth flowing of the society.Dharma actually changes from yuga to yuga.

Did you come to this conclusion by "intellect"? or did you read this somewhere? How do you know that Dharma is not a means of liberation with out "thinking" about it?

Here you have to clarify one more thing.. There are four Purushardhas.
Dharma, Artha, Kaama and Moksha. Why was Dharma selected as Pradhana Purushardha and Moksha as the last one? Please refer to to Sai Natha Prabothamritam pages from : 22 to 29 before you reply.

In those pages Master clearly says that Dharma is Sadhana itself. One who follows Dharma attains liberation the same way as a Jnani says the Bhagavatgita and also Master. Please read it carefully. Dharma is a must for liberation. Otherwise, Sai will not have followed Dharma as an example. Infact, Sai's entirelife is a teaching in what Dharma is. That is why Buddha said "Dharmam Sharanam Gacchami" as the first vow. Here Dharmam means Buddha's teachings on "way of life". Not just a collection of truths about spirituality. Buddha said that only by following such a life can anyone understand the profound truths of Spirituality. In that sense Dharma is a must.
Also it is said that without "Daivi Sampada" no Sadhana will be fruitful. The attainment of Daivi Sampada (or Buddha's 8 fold PATH) is based on practise and understanding and its about what you said as "WORLDLY". It is the basis of all Sadhana. without it no Sadhana will work. Because without such Davisampada, no one will want to do any sadhana at all. even if they want to, they will run into problems soon. To get Daivi Sampada dharmacharana is a must. Only in rear cases, people are born full of Daivi Sampada because of the result of their past lives Dharmacharana. Think carefully. Dharmacharana is a must. If you say that Dharmacharana is not needed for liberation, I agree with you because in special cases, people have realized truth without Dharmacharana. Such cases involve extreme introspection and is called the Jnana Marga. But the important point there is that such a person who does Jnana Marga Sadhana (Or Bhakti marga sadhana for that matter) live their lives beautifully and their actions will be according to Dharma. They will think of how to react to situations correctly so as to not to get attatched in Karma again. That requires intellect and that is what is called Dharmacharana. So, although you take a different route, Dharmacharana becomes a must. All the lives of All the Saints prove this point..

I would like to hear your views on this.

Righteousness, as the word says - is being "RIGHT". That is Dharma.
Swadharma means One's Dharma. It means what I should do becomes my Swadharma. I as a father, I as a disciple, I as a teacher, I as an employee and so on.. If done swadharma wrongly, it will become karma sanchaya and one doesnt attain liberation. So, Swadharmacharana is a must for liberation. Swadharmacharana comes by birth. Being born in a particular situation determines my Dharma. Fate determines birth and life situations. So, it comes by fate. You cant say that Swadharma comes by fate and not by birth. Swadharma also comes by birth which comes by fate (that I should be born in such a situation to such and such parents and so on.. which depends on my past karma).

You said : ALL IS NOT ONLY ONE AT THE SOUL LEVEL BUT ALSO AT THE HUMAN LEVEL.

Well.. then why this discussion? Who are you discussing with? If all is one, then why is castesystem bad? How does it count? It is same only at the level of Siddhapurushas who see the world as One. It is called a "SALOKYA" (means viewpoint or perspective). All is certainly not One at the human (ignorant human that is.. one who is realized is not just human, but God in human form) level. If we can see everything as One, then there is no need of Dharma or castesystem or arguments about it. That is why its said "Sarva Dharman Parityajja Mamekam Saranam Vraja". This happens only when we understand "TAT TWAM ASI" (Oh Guru! You are Everthing!)

You said : This swadharmacharana helps him to burn bad karma.To burn his good karma and bad together he has to in the end renounce this world. Because just as bad karma is like a iron shackles good karma is like a golden shakles.They will bring you back to this world to make you enjoy your fruits and that can only be burned by renouncing this world.

I agree with most of this statement.. Only thing i dont agree is that you have to renounce this world to burn good Karma. NOT AT ALL. YOU CAN BE IN THIS WORLD AND BURN GOOD KARMA. THINK OF ALL THOSE GRIHASTUS WHO ATTAINED LIBERATION. True, one has to let go at the mental level atleast. But only let go of the likes and dislikes, but one surely has to act in a Dharma way even then. Thats why, even sannyasis and buddha bhikshus have rules. You can see that Buddha, even after seeing that all is one still follows Dharma. You might ask :what about those who sit in meditation all the time? Well, that is their Dharma! Infact that is paramadharma! By meditating, you are helping out all the universe. So it is a dharma. Not only that, any one wanting to meditate all the time must leave the result of such meditation for the benifit of others. If all is one, why is this rule set by Buddha and Maharshis? Even then, one should react to the "many" correctly in a dharma manner. Without this understanding and proper behaviour towards "many", no one can attain liberation at all! Infact, if one thinks that he has to leave the idea of "Many", then he cant get liberated. Because to say that he has to "leave it", he has to "accept that it exists so that he can leave".. this acceptance itself will stop him from liberating.

The basis of all paths and religions is what is described as Buddha's 8 fold path. The path of VIVEKA, VIRAGYA, BHAKTI AND MOKSHA (in that order).Viveka means right thinking, Viragya means right attitude (These to allow us to have right way of living so that we can burn karma by using senses correctly and the mind correctly ). Bhakti means devotion (will to do sadhana in any method is bhakti towards that method. Even Jnana Marga followers are said to be Bhaktas of Jnana Marga) and Moksha (Liberation). The basis of all religions is the acceptance that AT ONE LEVEL ALL ARE DIFFERENT AND AT OTHER LEVEL ONELY ONE EXISTS.

You can read the 2nd chapter beginning of edinijam to understand that TRUTH ALWAYS HAS MANY LAYERS. and read chapter 5 and 6 to see how "THERE ARE MANY AND ONE". That is why many religions have "CODE OF CONDUCT" in them. If all is one, then there is no need to mention how to respond to Many. All religions accept that we see many, tell us how to respond correctly to many and how to attain oneness by thinking, acting and realising correctly. Please read different religious books with this idea in mind and you will find out that this is right. (THIS IS RIGHT BECAUSE MASTER SAID SO IN MATAM ENDUKU, BUT YOU CAN READ ALL OF THEM AND FIND THIS TOO, JUST LIKE I DID).
Do read Matam enduku to understand why religions are.

you said:
Intellect has nothing to do with sadhana.

Here I would ask you to define intellect. Etimologically, it can be argued that "intellect" or "intelligence" come from the root word "Intellectus" in latin which means "to understand or discern". This is what is called VIVEKA. which is very necessary for Sadhana (read any book on sadhana, you will get this point. read vivekachudamani, read aparokshanubhuti, dasabodha, bhagavatgita, sainatha prabothamritam, saileelamritam, chapter four of sai master pravachanalu.. any of these or any other standard book). UNDERSTANDING IS FUNDAMENTALLY IMPORTANT FOR SADHANA. IF NOT THEN ANY BOOK, DISCUSSION OR SADHANA IS A WASTE. IT WOULD ALSO BE A WASTE OF TIME TO THINK OR TO DO SADHANA AS BOTH OF THEM REQUIRE UNDERSTANDING HOW TO DO THEM.

You said : sadhana is not to sharpen the intellect but to subdue it.

Again, I disagree. Sadhana sharpens Viveka (which means it sharpens intellect). And only by a sharpened intellect can you observe the subtle (Brahma in all) according to buddha. (read buddha dhyana hridayam or Anguttara nikaya sutra). this is called "Smrityupasthana" and "samyak smriti".

You said : That is why i said that we should approach the ways of god like a small child.

It doesnt mean that you should approach without intellect. It means that you shouldnt be artificial before Mahatmas and put up a show. Approach God like a Child means, be natural and as you are infront of God without pretending.

You said :
That intellect will try to measure..will increase your ego and will try to understand and reason.

Without understanding and reasoning you cant even say the above statement. To say that "That intellect will try to measure..will increase your ego and will try to understand and reason" you need to reason and you need to understand (or misunderstand). So, to know the correct way to approach God, you need understanding and reasoning. When you reach God (if you reach Him like the all pervading unity you wont be there without Him.. which means there wont be two and so no need to even be like a child before God because God and child become one), that is in Mahatma form or Avatara form, you need to be natural and must be ready to "comprehend, understand" what he says. That is why Baba said "Both Viveka and Bhakti are necessary. Otherwise its no use". That is why it is said "PARIPRASNENA SEVAYA". Without understanding, how can you do pariprasna? Without Pariprasna, how can you attain Jnana? Bhagavatgita says that you should do Pariprasna to Tattwajnanis.. That means, you have to understand, that means you need intellect. Please read "Sai Master Pravachanalu" chapter four for full explaination.

You said :
Intellect in sadana will not let you move forward.Unless we get rid of it.

No. Intellect when used right, will take you forward in Sadhana. Infact, right intellect is part of Sadhana and without it there is no Sadhana for anyone below samadhi state.

You said :
Spirituality is about that which cannot be reasoned with this intellect of ours.It is limitless and cannot be explained with the terms which intellect normally uses to explain the things of this world.

Spirituality (taken as a translation of ADHYATMIKATA) is not just about what cannot be reasoned with this intellect. Please read Matamenduku to understand what Spirituality is. Please read "SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM" and read about Kapila Maharshi's discourse to His mother. I will write more about Spirituality once I find the sources with page numbers. I am searching Matam enduku and other scriptures for definitions of ADHYATMIKATA so that I can write correctly. I will write more on this later when needed.

One point to note is the FIRST SLOKA OF YOGA VASISTHYA says that BOTH KNOWLEDGE AND WORK WHEN DONE CORRECTLY TAKE YOU TO LIBERATION. ANY ONE OF THEM DOESNT. BOTH NEED TO BE DONE JUST LIKE A BIRD NEEDS TWO WINGS TO FLY.

So according to Ramayana, you need not just Jnana (Based on understanding and realization) but also Karma (based on vairagya and viveka needing understanding and also accepting the world and working in it correctly).

So, I think you need to rethink your theory that you should shun all "worldly things" and "shun intellect". You need both to realize. Even buddha said "See rightly and think rightly" (Samyak Drishti and Samyak Smriti). If all is one, what would you SEE and what would you THINK ABOUT when you are only ONE? Buddha said that you need both of those to attain Nirvana meaning that TO SEE EVERY THING AS ONE YOU NEED THE ABOVE BOTH. Buddha's own Sadhana, if you observe, is based on keen intellect with thorough observation, analysys, sysnthesis and understanding.




Jai Sai Master!



Dwarakanath

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2007, 04:48:54 PM »
Jai Sai Master!

Ravi garu, and Sai Bandhus!

I kinda expected some answers from you in the line that I Really expected. But for all matters' sake, when you said Rama & Krishna are NOT above me and you, and that they have no right to kill you, there itself, you have ended the discussion, because I frankly feel, you just want to hold on tight to all the bad things that were done to non-brahmins, you would not even like to spare Gods, while, I, although, did get some questions, take their supreme personality as their final decision, and keep reading and trying to know them.

And also, you mentioned, I will not believe it no matter which authority tells me so.[u/]...anothe point to close the discussion, because you have already made your decision, to shun the system of classes as specified by scriptures, which in your mind are mixed up by vested interests.

Another point, you are asking me question for a question. I did not ask why a person wants to be a king, which you asked me. Forget about a person wants to be a king or not. My intention was to see how far you are going to think. But alas, you asked me a reverse question.

Another point, Babu garu made the point clear about Intellect, and you still haven't answered me how you are going to achieve Spirituality, minus the Intellect. I stand with Babu garu's viewpoint, we need Intellect, to realize God through various ways.

Another point, I also expected you would take the points of Sita and Vali, that Rama killed the later through unfair means, that He ditched Sita, based on a normal person's words. It has become common these days to question the authority of Krishna and Rama as if, a judge is asking a person in the prison bar, while it is not the case. I sincerely believe, strongly believe, that we don't have the authority to question the avatars, Rishis, and Gods. Because when the time is ripe, they will give us the answered beyond our doubts.

Point revisited: Since you want to Rama & Krishna to have no right over you, or me, or kill somebody in the name of Dharma, I have no answer.

Finally, there was a perfect example, no...actually, 2 examples. One belongs to this time. One belongs to Baba's time. One, my mom doing some form of seva to Divyajanani Alivelu Mangamma garu, and there were couple of other ladies serving the Divine Mother. And the same question was popped up. About Rama .....and The Mother said "aa kaalamu lo aa mahaanubhaavulu enduku alaa annaro, enduku alaa chesaaro tappakunda teluskovalamma, kaani meeku samaadhanamu raakapote, ENDUKO ALAA CHESAARU, NAAKU TAPPAKUNDA TELUSTUNDI, ani vaalla saasanamuni teesukovaali amma".....When my mom told me this, that was a defining moment for me, in terms of what to believe and what not to believe.

Two, Shama asks Baba, "Baba, you ask us to tell the truth and you told lie to that man, saying that you don't have money, while you do have it" for which Baba replies "That man will not listen and so I lied to him" for which Master interpreted according to the scriptures, "Sreyassu paaduchese satyame...Asatyamu....Sreyassu baagu chese Asatyame Satyamu".

Well, I will bet my life on this, in a 1000 years or less, somebody is going to say, Baba is not a realized soul, or not even a saint, because He told lies. He beat His devotees, and swore at the, hurled bricks at His devotees etc etc etc.

And I am sure you would be asking me more questions, but this is something of an eye opener, your latest reply, which, you have made your decision, not to believe.

Regards to you,
Ananth
Jai Sai Master!!

Because of this deed ....Rama was born as Krishna.[u/]

You feel that you are wrong in this interpretation. Rama was not born as Krishna because of this deed. Krishna was born to kill other demons like Rama did. And this is the whole problem with out interpretation.
PS: Unedited again. Please ignore mistakes!!


ananthbabladi
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Jai Sai Ram
Jai Sai Master
Jai Sai Swamy

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2007, 04:49:08 PM »
Jai Sai Master!

Forgive my bad Sentence formation in the last part of my latest reply.

I meant to say, "I feel that you are wrong..instead of 'you feel' that you are wrong"...

Regards,
Ananth


ananthbabladi
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Jai Sai Ram
Jai Sai Master
Jai Sai Swamy

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2007, 04:49:33 PM »
Dear Dwarakanadh Garu....Namaskaram..

The first thing is that I would like to thank you for giving me the links.Apart from the books written about saints by Master Garu I never had a chance to read EDI NIJAM AND MATAM ENDUKU.

I will now enter the discussion.

When I said the Gods are just like us I did not compare the Guna of Rama with mine.It is something you have said ....but i really dint compare myself or you with him.

I said that Vishnu is bound by his own karmic force just as you and I are bounded by ours.That is what I meant.

Now the question about the classes proposed by Krishna.He says that the brahmins came from my head.The khsatriyas came from my shoulders.The vyshas came from my navel and shudras came from my feet.

Tell me why the brahmins who happen to have come from his head are so much in prominence and not the shudras.

Instead of taking a top down approach why not take a bottom top approach.

Now I will explain the bottom top approach to you.

In this approach the sudhras are the top most caste because they work hard in the fields and create the food which is life giving etc ,clean all the muck in the society and work hard.They are very important because the supreame lord himself has compared them to his feet.For any human or yaksha or a gandarva or any great soul the first point of contact are the feet of the LORD.so sudhras are the top most caste and the most enlightened.


They vyasas are the next because they using their peaceful methods use their intelligence for the generation of the wealth for the society.

The ksetriyas come next because using terrible war they kill but we need this lower class of men to protect us.

Finally the brahmins are the least of ignorant beings who sit before idols and recite useless mantras ..neither creating wealth nor food and living a general life of parasites by living off others.(please dont be offended..this is just to get my point to you).

Now why wasnt such a meaning given to us by the maharshis.It appears reasonable especially if I elaborate it further it will make a lot of sense too.

The logic lies in who is next to whom and who is farther from whom.The brahmins were always next to ksatriyas.So they had the power to tell us what they thought of this verse of Sri Krishna.

The poor sudras were those who are the farthest from the ksatriya clan so they couldnt fight or take power.This is purely logical.

(How do you know this? How do you know that Sudra Maharshies were made into Brahmins? Any Rishi, by definition is a Brahmin )

My Question to you is that what makes you think that by definition a sudra maharshi is a brahmin.Who told you that.

Now is the conflict.

What if I say that by definition all the maharshis of brahmin,ksatriya and vyasyas class are sudras by definition(The highest ones according to the above classification).

This is what i meant by brahminising the whole thing.YOUR QUESTION ITSELF HAS THE ANSWER.

The rishis did not present the caste system as you propose it to be.Or atleast not like a lot of great works that were written after the vedas assume about the caste system

If they really did then only the rishis qualify to be brahmins in this whole order of things.All the others would be sudras only.But its not so.

I ask you this question as a man to man.

Vishwamitra who killed vasistas sons and vasista who refused for a long time to accept vishwamitra (fuelling flames) and kaushika who burnt a crane with his anger .... how come they are not classified as sudhras?.

Why do the sastras say that this mass murderer is a brahmarshi?.

You may say that he was a ksatriya before.
But he was reinstated isnt it?.

leave that aside..

I can give you a lot more examples of how the brahmins by birth did many wrongs and were let of because they come from a nobel birth.
All these stories have not said that they were maharshis as you define them.They were born brahmins.

SO MY contention that the Rishis did not create the caste system is correct.

I know very well that the vedas were not only read by women but also written by a few women themselves.I can elaborate further based on my reading but I prefer to read what maa master garu says about this whole affair.

The ancient society recognized the importance of all. Irrespective of one's skill or background, there was a place for him / her to participate actively and make useful contribution. The ceremonial rites, though conducted by the learned priest, were open to all. People used prayers for atonement and benediction for all. Everyone sent their "heroes" (sons) to the battles for Visha or to protect and assist the Sovereign.

This above statement is from a book that I read so if everyone went to war to protect the nation where does the question of swadharma and paradharma come from?.

(How do you know that Dharma is not a means of liberation with out "thinking" about it? )

This is purely my personal opinion.But it has some basis in what i read so lets first define hindu dharma.

The word "dharma" in Hinduism is an individual's duty fulfilled by observance of custom or law.

I have pasted some of the laws below..

But then the buddist Dharma and the Hindu Dharma are very very different.
The Dharma of Bhudda is for every one.It has to be followed by everyone ...without discrimination between men and women and their professsions(castes).

(I would like to listen to you about what a Dharma is.Or what you mean by it)

The dharma of a ksatriya is to protect the brahmin ..to serve him ...to give gifts to a brahmin...to worship his feet..apart from worshipping all the gods etc
more or less same is prescirbed for a vyasya

now lets come to the dharma of a sudra.

To purely server the above classes.That is his dharma.HOW WILL it grant him his liberation.

It is possible that your view and my view of Dharma are different so we are at this disagreement.

Hindu Dharma especially specifies what a sudra should do..what a vyasya should do ..and what a women should do.

That lead to the later wrong concepts that to die with her husband is a dharma of a women.It is like killing yourself for nothing in my opinion.A suicide.Of couse it is pativrata dharma.

I dont give any importance to that aspect because a life that could have been used for GOD has gone waste.IF that is dharma of a women I am against it.And its not the means for salvation.Following such a dharma will not take her anywhere.
Same is the case with a sudhra.If for example he simply keeps serving the higher classes which for me is not his liberation.

SHIRDI Sai baba and his dharma are very different from the above things because he never had a class ,never encoraged it but tolerated everyone with their faith etc.It is something greater than dharma.

I agree its my personal opinion based on my readings.

ABOUT SWADHARMA AND LIBERATION.

I came to this conclusion looking at almost all the saints of all the religions who left their swadharma and became what they became.
I never had any proof of a samsari who does his swadharma and has got liberation.So i am in my rights to have such a preposterous opinion.

But i must add that Sri Rama Krishna parama hamsa did say that liberation is possible from anywhere.In fact it is easy for a samsari to get liberation because he is fighting the enemy from inside a fort.

There are very few who have got liberation this way i thought.

our master garu was a samsari too but he also contemplated a life of brahmacharya.

Its from that point of view I said what I said.

You say swadharma is a must.I say its a must because a sansari has no other way.That is the only way he can take a step forward.

I believe in mysticism more then the shastras .These are merely books.

I believe in the lives of saints and they are bounded by devine dharma and their dharma seems to transcend over all the others.I believe them more then books.

Another jewel from a dharmasriti for you...

"But let a Sudra serve Brahmans, either for the sake of heaven or with a view to both this life and the next, for he who is called the servant of a Brahmana thereby gains all his ends."

'The remnants of their food must be given to him, as well as their old clothes, the refuge of their grain and their old household furniture'

This is the height of a good joke.Simply written by a brahmin for the sudras.
Actually a very good way to get rid of leftover food.

I dont belive in following dharma laid down by others.

Now verses from vishnusmriti.

If a (low-born) man through pride give instruction (to a member of the highest caste) concerning his duty, let the king order hot oil to be dropped into his mouth

If one who (being a member of the chandala or some other low caste) must not be touched, intentionally defiles by his touch one who (as a member of a twice-born caste) may be touched (by other twice-born persons only), he shall be put to death.

anyway the list can go on.That is why i took the example of a ksatriya in explaining that it may help him to go to urdvalokas but not to gain libaration.
That way there is no need for anyone to take up sanyas which was prescribed to all in the end of their lives.
Like Jesus said two knives cannot be put into one sheath.(well it was about money and god).So how will a merchant who will be so immersed in his daily thoughts of money and a ksatriya who is always thinking of his enimies and a sudhra who lives on leftover foods and thinks of food always achive liberation? please answer...
swadharmacharana is very good concept for the brahmins that is why most fo them talk of it.THEY HAVE NOTHING TO LOOSE.A brahmin by his pooja and his religious duties will for ever be before a deity.He will be in the presence of GOD always so for him his swadarmacharana is his moksha.For other it could be a bandana.Please think about what i said.
There are other points of views too.

I think that dharma is placed before all the other four aspects is because for a worldly person has to be fair in the way he deals with others.
I gave a similar example that a merchant has to do good and not cheat etc but to see god in himself like sri ramakrishna did he still has to meditate a lot.That is what i meant.


Swadharma I as a father...I as a son..I as a husband etc is ok but what you are doing in the course of this dharma could bound you to it.

It will be impossible for one to know the differentiate the ties of maya this way.If some household devotees have done it then the list is less.Those who left the world are more in numbers who could see God in themselves.

So that is what i meant by swadharma dosent help.


When i said swadharma dosent come by birth i gave you an example.The life of chanikya who was a brahmin by birth who became an administrator.

IT dosent come by birth but by your karma.There are many instances of all the 4 castes of men doing the dharma of others.It is fate more but then if fate decides birth and if birth really decides your dharma then you are correct.

which i think is debatable.

(NOT AT ALL. YOU CAN BE IN THIS WORLD AND BURN GOOD KARMA. THINK OF ALL THOSE GRIHASTUS WHO ATTAINED LIBERATION. True, )

I agree with you and there are success stories but they are few in number.
The number of those who left the swadharma were more in number in the aspects of self realisation.

The bhodi dharma is a little different and it really dosent count here in my opinion because buddha rejected Gods...and denounced the caste system and took in everyone in his fold and the dharma of his is same for all his monks.

(If all is one, why is this rule set by Buddha and Maharshis? )

ALL THE MONKS OF Bhuddist time were told to have compassion.This rule above is compassion for the creatures of the world which are in ignorance.
It also inculcates a sense of unshelfishness in a human being.Any one can be a monk and take up this giving up meditation for the benifit of others.
there are no distinctions ...no differences among people...or among monks.everyone had one rule.
i did not understand the many and liberating example that you gave.

(The basis of all religions is the acceptance that AT ONE LEVEL ALL ARE DIFFERENT AND AT OTHER LEVEL ONELY ONE EXISTS. )

This is not the basis of all the religions.If it is its wrong.

Atleast Bhuddist scriptures tell a different story than what you have said.AT the worldly level all are different but only in appearances..religions..beliefs etc.
Which are irrelevant for realisation purpose and infact are shackles and hurdles one should pass to realise the almighty.

They still are same before a God and a realised Guru.That is the basis of the Bhuddist religion.You cant say its not.There are proofs in scriptures for it.


The code of conduct when it differs from person to person based on his birth it becomes evil.

no religion says painters you do this,kings you do this ,,priests you kick the painters painters you kick the cleaners etc.

Atleast bhuddism dosent say that.

ALL THE CLASSES AND ALL THE MEN ARE SAME AND EQUAL BEFORE GOD AND SPIRITUAL THINGS.

have no doubts about that please.

(tell us how to respond correctly to many and how to attain oneness by thinking, acting and realising correctly)

The first step is to realise that in every human being lies God.He can be realised by anyone even with out doing swadharmacharana.And by doing swadharmacharana as long as it is fair and righteous and dosent hurt or harm any one else in thought or deed.

If you are comparing intellect to viveka you are wrong in this matter.I WILL QUOTE THE WORD OF SWAMI SIVANANDA.

There are great truths behind the ancient mythology of Hinduism. You cannot ignore a thing simply because it has a garb of mythology. Do not argue with yourself. Keep your intellect at a respectable distance when you study mythology. Intellect is a hindrance. It will delude you. Give up arrogance and vanity. Cultivate love for imagery. Sit like a child and open your heart freely. You will comprehend the great truths revealed by mythology. You will penetrate into the hearts of the Rishis and sages who wrote the mythology. You will really enjoy mythology now..

Excerpt from All About Hinduism by Sri Swami Sivananda

I talked about intellect from this point of view.If sadhana sharpens intellect that fellow is a gone case.

Bhuddas point of intellect could mean something else but then i didnt read that book you said so i am not sure.

You should approach the scriptures like a child but i said it in a different way.I said it from the point of view of a grown up man with all his preformed opinions and all the worldly differences already built up in him.

The word viveka as described by someone is posted below

Viveka - The nearest English translation for Viveka is conscience. A Yogi with wakened conscience can accurately discriminate between the real and the unreal, the Maya. The ideal Yogi dedicates his or her life to selfless service to the world as an unquestioning instrument of the Lord. Hinduism believes that this Samsara ? the universe ? has six waves that sweep Jiva into involvement with worldly affairs. These are - Birth and Death, which belong to the physical body; Hunger and Thirst, which belong to Prana, the life-force; and Exhilaration and Grief, which belong to the mind. If the Yogi can separate himself or herself from these six waves the conscience gradually develops

I agree it can mean discrimination but it means one should be conscience himself and discriminate.Not like discriminating on the roopam or the vesham or the caste.This was written by master garu too.That sadguruvu roopa vesha bhasalanu lekka cheyyani vadu krutarduavutadu ani,

for ex...
Pari prasnha when asked with the intention to test the guru is not veveka it is from the intellect.

It appears that we agree on all aspects but only words are the ones that are confusing and making us argue.

To see rightly and think rightly we have to start with the opinon that all men are sudras and in the realms of spirituality all are equal.

YES Bhuddas sadhana is based on conscience based reasoning where he was pure conscience only.

I agree with that.

Nothing has educated me more in the last few days more than this
discussion.
Thank you for giving me books to read for the week end.

With regards and love

Jai Sai Master


with regards and love
Kiran.

ravifrom

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2007, 04:49:56 PM »
ANANT GARU...

I request you to forgive me if I have hurt you.Your last post has disturbed me and made me feel very guilty.I am really sorry.

I love Sri Rama.I was just making a point that even Gods will be bound by karma and that they cannot kill (vali or a sudhra) without taking the bad karma of it.
Thats all I wanted to make clear.

The reason for asking a question for a question was to specify that a king is reaping the benifits in this life too for his karma etc.

The question of intellect perhaps we differ in definion.ANTE...APART FROM THAT i dont want to really hurt you.

I have given my reply to Dwarakanath gari post.

Your example about alivelu mangamma talli has made me really happy.

I would like to apologise to you.
with love
kiran

ravifrom