Author Topic: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....  (Read 15382 times)

ravifrom_old

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please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« on: March 25, 2007, 01:42:45 AM »
JAI SAINATH MAHARAJ...JAI MASTER garu ...

HELLO EVERY ONE...

I have read Sri Guru Charita...and I have some doubts.

I felt that the main reason why our beloved sai has asked his devotees to read it is because we CAN know the importance of a Guru in our spiritual life.

Apart from that aspect all the other things in Sri Guru charitra are very controversial and are very very pro braminic.I found many lines that were a little hurting and I couldnt understand the importance of this book.It was also very restricting and imposing a lot of limits on how a woman should behave.These things I could not understand no matter how many times i read it.I feel that it is a little out of time.

Some body please explain to me how Guru charitra should be read and where its importance lies.

thank you
ravi

ananthbabladi_old

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2007, 07:21:32 PM »
Jai Sai Master! Ravi garu!

I can understand your concerns after reading the Guru Charitra and your
doubts. Perhaps, it is beyond my scope to even attempt to tell you the
importance of Sri Guru Charitra. But before that, please do note some
of the points that I am trying to put forward. Also, please do not get
offended if I am using examples, because that is the only way to
clearly tell a point.

To start the discussion, please note the below points from Srimad Bhagavatam!!

Quote:

"SB 7.11.8-12: These are the general principles to be followed by all human beings: truthfulness, mercy, austerity (observing fasts on
certain days of the month), bathing twice a day, tolerance, discrimination between right and wrong, control of the mind, control of the senses, nonviolence, celibacy, charity, reading of scripture, simplicity, satisfaction, rendering service to saintly persons, gradually taking leave of unnecessary engagements, observing the futility of the unnecessary activities of human society, remaining silent and grave and avoiding unnecessary talk, considering whether one is the body or the soul, distributing food equally to all living entities (both men and animals), seeing every soul (especially in the human form) as a part of the Supreme Lord, hearing about the activities and instructions given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead (who is the shelter of the saintly persons), chanting about these activities and instructions, always remembering these activities and instructions, trying to render service, performing worship, offering obeisances, becoming a servant, becoming a friend, and surrendering one's whole self. O King Yudhiṣṭhira, these thirty qualifications must be acquired in the human form of life. Simply by acquiring these qualifications, one can satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

SB 7.11.21: The symptoms of a brāhmaṇa are control of the mind, control of the senses, austerity and penance, cleanliness, satisfaction, forgiveness, simplicity, knowledge, mercy, truthfulness, and complete surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

SB 7.11.22: To be influential in battle, unconquerable, patient, challenging and charitable, to control the bodily necessities, to be forgiving, to be attached to the brahminical nature and to be always jolly and truthful ? these are the symptoms of the kṣatriya.

SB 7.11.23: Being always devoted to the demigods, the spiritual master
and the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu; endeavoring for advancement in religious principles, economic development and sense gratification [dharma, artha and kāma]; believing in the words of the spiritual master and scripture; and always endeavoring with expertise in earning money ? these are the symptoms of the vaiśya.

SB 7.11.24: Offering obeisances to the higher sections of society [the
brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas and vaiśyas], being always very clean, being free from duplicity, serving one's master, performing sacrifices without uttering mantras, not stealing, always speaking the truth and giving all protection to the cows and brāhmaṇas ? these are the symptoms of the śūdra.

"SB 7.11.31: My dear King, brāhmaṇas well conversant in Vedic knowledge have given their verdict that in every age [yuga] the conduct of different sections of people according to their material modes of nature is auspicious both in this life and after death."

"SB 7.11.32: If one acts in his profession according to his position in
the modes of nature and gradually gives up these activities, he attains
the niṣkāma stage."

"SB 7.11.35: If one shows the symptoms of being a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of
classification."-----Srimad Bhagavatam
 

*************************************************************

The above points are taken from Srimad Bhagavatam, translated as it is, without any filtrations. Especially please pay special attention to the last point. So, for your doubt, we should ask ourselves, first ...What is the Definition of a Brahmin, before we can go to the next step of Guru charitra seeming like a pro-brahminic.

As you can see from the above points, a Brahmin is a person who shows some tendencies according to the set of instructions as defined by God. Let's say for example, I am born in a family of Brahmins, in this 21 st century. Can I call myself a Brahmin? Absolutely not. As Sri Guru says, due to Kali Kaala Vaipareetyamu, there will be lots of bad people. In the same way, none of belong to any particular caste, if we closely observe ourselves.

In the same way, as specified in Sri Guru Charitra, a Chandaala after getting instant Gnaana (knowledge) that he was a Brahmin in his previous life, he asks Sri Guru that he be reinstated into the Brahmin class. Does he have a right to ask like that? He does!! but who better knows than Datta Swamy? So, Sri Guru knows that the guy's latent tendencies are not yet "Brahminical". And that's the reason why he was not reinstated into "Brahminism".

Again, going back to the above points taken from Bhagavatam, THE LORD himself states that if a person shows a different tendency than the class he is born in, then he WILL be reinstated into the class in which he shows tendencies in. Taking the Sri Guru Charitra again, a Washerman was transported to a hiher level of consciousness and better life, in the next janma. Here we should remember that although he was a muslim, his consciousness made him think universally. So, based on this example, Brahminism was a state of the mind. If a ladder is taken as four classes then on the top was a Brahmin. And all the classes were interchangeable. But alas, these days, we cannot do that way. And we take it that since a boy is Brahmin is born in a Brahmin family, he is a Brahmin, while he shows 99% tendencies as being a sudra.

And this is exactly what Sri Guru Charitra says in the book. Taking the next point, Pro-Brahminism. I hope I am not offending you, but at this point, having written all the above points, there is no word called pro-Brahminism, if we really take the above meaning from Bhagavatm into consideration. Don't you think so? So, if Brahmisim (and every other caste) is a class defined by the God himself with strict set of rules, and no man can be born Brahmin, literally. If one is born in a Brahmin family, he should act that way, and he should follow the rules that way. That is why we say in Telugu "Dwijudaina Brahmachaari", because inspite of being born in a Brahmin family, one might not be a Brahmin as specified by God unless, he is born again through sacred thread ceremony and performing the duties strictly as enjoined upon him. The same strict rules apply for other classes, although there is no sacred ceremony that I know of ( I need to read more books to know more knowledge on this point). So, if Brahminism is loosely bound, how can associate ourselves as Brahmins and how can we say it is the topmost in this present world?

In the same way, you were mentioning about Woman's status being looked down upon. But I strongly feel it is not so. More so, compared to the modern woman, with skimpy clothes, and being "liberated", she still is
being looked down by a man in this modern age. Can you tell me what is the reason that we see a woman being shown literally topless, while a man is fully clothed. A woman is shown with lots of skin in our Indian movies, singing a song in the Himalayas at -30 degrees celcius, while the Hero is fully clothed. If the woman refuses, she has no role. And that situation is exactly synonymous to the real life too. Or what we all call, "Real life is Reel life". But in the olden days, just like the four classes, woman were given those strict rules to follow, just like the men given the same kind of strict rules to follow. I have had many discussions where acquaintances of mine asked "Sati saha gamana is so horrible, woman is literally killed and we say we Indians are great". Again my answer was every Dharma, Every righeteous Karma, every rule, as time passed by, was given different meaning by devious man for his own devilish purpose, and so it was mis interpreted. In Sri Guru Charitra, Savitri is so so so disturbed by the death of his husband, that she cannot think of a life apart from her husband. According to scriptures, a pativrata will instantly lose her life as soon as she hears the death if her husband, and it is that which is called Sahagamanam. What follows is only a procedure of putting her already dead-body on the pyre of her husband. Her renunciation of her life after her husband's death is so intense. And that is why Sri Guru Charitra specifies that Sri Guru went to the extent of changing the very writ of her husband's karma by Brahma's permission. So, we can see that a woman was given great importance.

So, in my view, a woman was restricted in the same lines as a man was,
in their respective duties. Nothing more nothing less. Now, coming to the most important part of my discussion, Why read Sri Guru Charitra? and why it seemed contreversial to you.

Take the latter part first. Why it seemed controversial. I would like to request you which parts of the book were controversial, so that we can engage in some discussion, in an elderly fashion. But mostly, not just in Sri Guru Charitra, but in all holy scriptures, are interpreted in various ways. You might ask me then why would you need to believe in my interpretation. My answer is, Don't. Our duty is to believe in interpretations given by Mahatmas. For example, Master Garu has given lots of introduction to each chapter in the Sri Guru Charitra in the modern way. Otherwise, forget about following it, we cannot even understand Sri Guru Charitra. In the same way, I request you to follow this simple step. Pray with earnest honesty to Sri Sai Baba and Sri Master garu to guide you in your quest to understand Sri Guru Charita, and I can guarantee you, They will come in your dreams, and then you will have no more doubts, no more controversies. But, the danger is, being our nature (our in the sense, all of us ordinary people) we follow our mind and our heart and so we believe anybody (starting from us to anybody who is a self-proclaimed Guru). There in lies our mistake of translating different points of sacred scriptures. This is exactly why we are living in a turbulent world and turbulent times, with no clear direction.

And the last point, why read Guru Charitra? You yourself have given the
answer Ravi garu. To reach the Lord through the help of a Sadguru. Until we meet our Sadguru we keep playing in this universe, through millions and millions of lives, not necessarily human!!! But to really give you a satisfactory answer of why we should read Sri Guru Charitra, I need more time to think Ravi garu. Because it is a very important question, which applies to all the mankind.

And finally, I hope you did not get offended by my discussion. I was only trying to give my side of the answers to your questions, to your agitations about Sri Guru Charitra. Babu Garu and other Sai Bandhus, I request you to add your valuable input to this discussion.
With regards to you Ravi garu,

Jai Sai Master!!
Ananth



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Jai Sai Ram
Jai Sai Master
Jai Sai Swamy
-----------------------
Jai Sai Ram
Jai Sai Master
Jai Sai Swamy

ravifrom_old

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2007, 07:22:14 PM »
Jai Shiridi Sai Baba! Jai Master Garu!

Dear ANANT garu,

I would like to thank you very much for the vast information that you have put here.I really loved to read it and it was very informative.

There is really no reason for me to feel offended because a formal discussion about religions is needed always to understand scriptures in the better light.

It is generally accepted by almost all scholars that during the vedic period the caste system was not existing as we know today.So discrimination based on caste was not there.Also God was one and so many gods were not in prominence.

So based on many other indicators it is generally accepted that many of these scriptures which support caste system came into existance during later part of our times AND they were written by brahmins for the purpose of their own selfishness.That is what i meant by pro brahminism.

Going by the definition of Srimad Bhagavatam many brahmins wont be brahmins as you have said.
Since a brahmin should have sama bava of all the people ADI Shankara cannot be considered a brahmin too because he was angry at a sudhra who happened to cross his path.

Any human being is same before God.And all the human beings are sudhras going by your definition.That way the question of reinstatement which is proposed by a sudhra (in sri guru charita) to that of a brahmin caste is by itself a faulty one.

where is the question of reinstatement when he is a soul of the high order.It is nothing but agnana or ignorance if a sudra who has by the merit of his deeds has brahmin traits to ask to be reinstated because for a all pervading soul and that which is never born and will never die where is the question of reinstatement?.
It will be like a nobel prize winner to ask for a phd in the subject of his nobel prize award.He who has known himself and has found God in himself---for such a man being certified into something else will make no sense at all.

That is the reason why Buddha denounced the caste system.

There is no reinstatement to a higher class because there is no lower class at all.It was he who had bad normal human qualities before which have now disappeared.

He who is realised will not ask for such a thing.

I dont mean to hurt you..i just would like to question the purpose of this so called division between men based of gunas.When by birth every one is a sudhra why divide them?.

The term pro brahmin was meant in this context.

The question of the sacred thread is also a tendency of maya.Sri Rama Krishna paramahamsa used to meditate taking off this sacred thread because it was hindering him from reaching higher levels in his meditation and he tells that its a bond of this world.

I agree with you that the term brahminism is loosely bond and that it can be interpreted by each on his own.

I dont want to hurt anyone but i personally hold the concept of a pativrata to be a kind of a shackle which has to be broken.

It is a very restricting term used to jurdge women and which tries to control their behavior.

Of course even men were controlled and were put in their own limitations with the help of rules and regulations.

When Guru Nanak saw a women trying to commit Sati sahagamanam he asked her ' why are you doing this'.

she replied 'because I want to be a perfect sati for my husband'.

It was then Sri Guru Nanak replied ' Any women who commits her life to God almighty is a SATI its not required for you to die for your husband to prove that you are a SATI.

It is said that she got down from the pyre of her husband and became a monk.

It was also said that there is no man on the face of this world.

All creatures women,trees ,animals and all men themselves are like women before the almighty GOD.Sri krishna rasa leela has to be understood in this sense only.

He is the only man and all of us are women before him.Sati should be understood with these points in view and so in the end it does not really mean a women should kill herself for her man.

Because after one dies who is a husband and who is a wife.

A soul will be eternally free.From these points of views Sri Guru charitra is a restricting document.

It is bound by tradition of its time.

Scriptures have to be understood with the help of a mahatma like sai baba.If such a great soul is not there to tell us its of no use to read them because we will understand them from our ignorant point of view.

The reason why Shiridi Sai Baba asked so many people to read the Sri Guru charitra is because that is the only document that talks about the importance of a guru in spiritual discipline.

I got some answers from the Srimad Bhagavatam verses that you have given in your answer and I would like to thank you for them.They were very enlighting and intresting.
I would like to thank you for your help in this matter.

JAI SAI MASTER GARU

with regards

kiran (ravifrom)

Dwarakanath

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2007, 07:22:48 PM »
Jai Sai Master!

Kiran Garu,

You have started a nice discussion, but for me it seems that there is a need of an "Authority" who can speak about such stuff to tell us whats right. This kind of debate is age old and will never break if mere mortals like us discuss it. I urge you to read "Pariprasna" by Master (If you can read Telugu).

Ananth has given a great answer. I loved reading it.

I have also understood that you have read a lot of books. Like about Sri Ramakrishna and others. Its great!

But what I dont agree with, in ur argument is this :

For example,
you said Ramakrishna used to take out even the Sacred thread while meditating. True. It takes a Ramakrishna to do it. Every one who is a mere mortal, who still has unrighteous attitude, shouldnt and couldnt emulate Sri Ramakrishna. A King can call his Queen "darling".. if any one else tries that because the King did so, is sure to be beheaded.

The sacred thread is a reminder to oneself, a "Deeksha Bandham", to keep well within ones' limitations of conduct so as to not stray into unrighteousness. For people of Sri Ramakrishna's stature, they are above "Deeksha" and "Daksha". They can easily take it out cause they dont need to be reminded. If we try to take example of that, then we should also take an example of his prayer, his righteous behaviour, attitude against money and women and all that. If we dont do any of that but just take the thread out, then it means we have not understood the meaning of thread at all.

Similarly, Sri Sankaracharya who got angry towards the Shudra also surrendered himself to that Shudra. Can we do it? Can we go on the road and bow down to some one who is sweeping the road? Can we? Also, after that, Sri Sankaracharya's conduct is unquestionable. Its clearly evident that Lord Shiva Himself came as that Chandala because Sri Sankaracharya was a worthy soul who can listen to even a Chandala. Can you and I listen to a Chandala? How is our conduct? I dont think my conduct is comparable to that of Sri Sankaracharya. I cant make a golden sitrus rain by praying. Sankaracharya is uncomparable in that angle. True, He didnt behave like a brahmin by getting angry, but He immediately became a brahmin by bowing down to that great man in chandala's form. Isnt that evidence that Sankaracharya learnt to see through the apparent?

From the above examples, I feel that there is a dire need of direction and clarification in one's reading of books. As Baba said "Mere book knowledge isnt enough".

You said, "Any human being is same before God". True, but only partially.
"Any being is EQUAL before God" is the correct one. EQUAL AND SAME are different, and one should understand that. Even Lord Sri Rama called only Sita as His wife.. Just because all are "equal" doesnt mean all are "same". He didnt call every woman and man to be his wife. That doesnt mean that He isnt great. It only means that He loves each of us differently. Same and Equal are different. Similarly, all four "Castes" (based on Guna and Karma and not on birth) are EQUAL BUT NOT SAME. A poor student needs tuitions and imposition, but a brilliant student needs only token guidance. That doesnt mean that the teacher is wrong. It only means that he is teaching as per the student. Similarly, different castes are given different roles in the body called society. Neighter hands are greater nor the feet. None is lesser. Each should accomplish its duty, otherwise the whole thing doesnt work. The concept of one greater than the other is a wrong idea populated in the middle ages. Buddha denounced the wrong caste system. He kept up the right one. You can see that he classified people into Monks and Bhikshus and further, He allowed rulers and clans. He just replaced the wrong caste system with the right one.

Question of reinstatement is merely "governmental" and not "spiritual". Reinstatement is like a accounts book entry. Nothing more. If we talk of souls and denounce reinstatement, so do we have to denounce marriage, hospitals, kindness and all other things. Think about it, is it not agnana that makes you feel pity? is it not agnana that tells you that you are different from the other person and so you should help him? Talking of souls is utterly denounced when talking social issues in Dharma Shastras. Its only for "Sannyasis" who left society. Very true that there is no "higher" and "lower" class. There are "Different" classes. If I am a scientist I am a Scientist class. What wrong is there for me to go join a "social worker" class and leave my "scientist class"? Cant I enroll myself in a NGO? I surely can, for logistical reasons. Reinstatement is a social act and is not a spiritual act. whether u are reinstated or not, spiritually it hardly makes a difference. but socially, it will make a difference. If you are accepted as a good person with a clean non criminal record, only then will you be allowed into a new country. Its just like that. Nothing more nothing less.

The statement "HE WHO IS REALIZED WILL NOT ASK FOR SUCH A THING".. is a bit wrong. You can read Ramayana and see how different Maharshis react. Ofcourse, I am not a realized person. So I CANT LOGICALLY SAY WHAT A REALIZED SOUL WILL OR WIll NOT ASK FOR. ITS PREPOSTEROUS. Infact, it would be more apt to say, A REALIZED SOUL WILL OR WILL NOT ASK FOR SUCH A THING DEPENDING ON WHICH IS BETTER FOR THE WHOLE UNIVERSE. Jumping to conclusions regarding realized souls is utterly denounced in all forms of spirituality.

WHEN BY BIRTH EVERY ONE IS A SHUDRA, WHY DIVIDE THEM? When by birth every one is a boy or a girl, why divide them into doctors, engineers, students, professionals, married, unmarried, social workers, intellectuals, good people and bad people, criminals and non criminals, rich and poor, educated and illiterate? Why? Just for Social Systemic reasons, they need to be divided so that each of them can be given an APT role. Imagine a thin and weak fellow like me being pushed into the army. It wont be the optimal thing. We have to see who is stronger and send them for a specific role. Let others like me do weaker things. That is the best way for a social system. Thats why divisions are necessary. If sustaining a society is seen as Spiritual, then such classification is spiritual. If not seen as spiritual because of perspectives of "souls" and "all are one", then there is no question of "society" and there is no question of discussing whether "dividing" is correct or not, since it doesnt matter if "all are one". So, that argument itself doesnt stand.


CONCEPT OF PATIVRATA TO BE KIND OF A SHAKLE TO BE BROKEN.
Hmm.. you mean, broken by conduct? You mean, every woman should not be loyal to her family and husband? I dont know... I wouldnt want it. I doubt if any one wants it. Even if anyone wants it, it doesnt get justified by "physiological" and "psychologcal" reasons. For example, if a woman isnt true physiologically to her husband, then she would more than likely promote spreading of diseases like aids, let alone social issues. Similarly, unless a man and woman have single partners, they cant share that much needed unperturbed intimacy and love for each other psychologically. Also, every one isnt equally beautiful or handsome. This creates a lot of problems if the concept of Pativrata and Eka Patni Vrata arent there. Problems of attention to kids will also suffer if its not there. So, I think its not a Shakle to be broken but a bond to be kept and honoured. I am sure, in the heart of hearts, every person (and most of the time animals) agree. If any one doesnt agree, that person is either a supreme being or a pervert who needs medical attention.

Sati Sahagamanam is a very bad custom that got developed in the middle ages. It has nothing to do with pativratyam. It has to be denounced under all normal circumstances. Rare circumstances of Sahagamanam like in the age of pandavas, I think, shouldnt be emulated artificially. People like Pandu and Madri are of a different spiritual level and not to be imitated literally. Also, Sahagamanam of Pandu Raj and Madri has a profound symbolism. Neways, all in all, today, it shouldnt be emulated but it should be strongly denounced. There is no need to denounce pativratya at all.
You wrote very well about Sati. I learnt a new view point towards Sati Sahagamana from your post. I am forever indebted to you for equating the concepts of pativratya and Rasa leela.

BUT AFTER ONE DIES WHO IS A HUSBAND AND WHO IS A WIFE?
Well, I am not sure.. I aint dead yet. I dont like to talk loosely of what happens after death. Its profoundly mysterious and mothernature kept it so for some serious reasons. I dont play gamble on saying what it is like after one dies and whether one is a husband and wife or not. But even after one of the partners of marriage dies, I think their relationship stands. Atleast in the heart of the survivors. I mean, when you marry into families, families are tied, kids are born. If a wife doesnt stay a wife, the whole social system collapses. If I die a premature death, I sure want my wife to take care of my kids and parents and I would do so towards her parents if she has to die early. I wouldnt want to marry another girl for mere sexual pleasure and tangle in a cluster of random relationships. It is not very optimal in a social sense. Ofcourse, if there is a dire social need, it is always accepted by scriptures to remarry. But if the marriage was genuine, in both physical and psychological terms, it is hard to repeat the same relationship. This is evident in the stories of many lovers who died for each other. The bond is that strong. If it isnt so strong, then it isnt marriage.

In keeping all these in mind, I say Sri Gurucharitra, is particularly enlightening and correct doccument that could be followed logically with appropriate corrections taken under the advice of saints. Even in Gurucharitra, the wife followed what that sannyasi told and then approached Sri Guru. IT IS THE IDEAL WAY OF DOING IT. If one is in doubt, they should approach a Daivagnya and ask what they should do, that is, whether they should remarry or become a Vidhava. I consider myself too small in stature to comment on SRI GURUCHARITRA as RESTRICTED, especially when Sai Baba and Master prescribed it. I would rather ask a saint when in doubt rather than loosely comment that it is a restricting doccument. I view it as LIBERATING doccument that allows man to procede to nirvana by helping him on personal, social and spiritual levels.

IT IS BOUND BY TRADITION OF ITS TIME.

I feel its based on timeless Dharma. Only that it is being misunderstood that it is being viewed as outdated. The best thing to do is not to comment or to form opinions of the book, but ask Saints. As Baba said "SCRIPTURES NEVER LIE. ITS MISUNDERSTANDING THEM THATS CAUSING YOU TROUBLE". Sri Gurucharitra, in my view, is a matchless scripture, written about Sri Guru by Vasudevananda Saraswati. I dont consider myself so great as to say it is wrong. Some perverts (even among Master's disciples) might say it, but since Master never said it, I will never accept it. Master is always right. I agree with your point that SCRIPTURES HAVE TO BE UNDERSTOOD WITH THE HELP OF A MAHATMA.
But I dont agree thaty there is no use of reading them. I think they should be read and struggled with for understanding. When you ask, Baba is there to answer. Why worry? Its better to read and ask for understanding than not reading and remaining ignorant and so going wrong. I think reading it is paramaount and thats why Baba prescribed it and Master prescribed it. Surely, they are not so ignorant as to prescribe something thats useless to read. I am not great enough to say so.

I have given my views here, and again, my point is not to hurt anyone. I am just pointing out my attitude towards Guru charitra.

MAY BABA AND MASTER HELP US UNDERSTAND!

Jai Sai Master!

-Dwarakanath


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"A diligent study of lives of saints, their acts and teachings would educate all aspirants to transcend the vicious, narrow barrier of religion and race and identify a true Sadguru." -- Master E.

ravifrom_old

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2007, 07:23:14 PM »
Jai Shiridi Sai baba, Jai Sai Master ...,
Dwarakanath Garu....Namaskaram...,

I dont agree with you.

I always think if master garu were there physically it would be so great and so wonderful because I would have asked him this I would have asked him that etc.

Any way my opinion is that one should not follow any spiritual book blindly and I am sure that Master garu would agree with me.
Similarly one should not follow all traditions just because we have nothing to lose in those matters.

For example the caste system may not hurt me and simply because of that one should not follow it...or the same is the case with Sati or other women related issues.Emphathy is the beggining of all the religions just as equality is the basis of all jurdgements.

Your answers are all very very society oriented and are about what the society demands.That can never be the basis of any religion.

SIMPLY because religion is the starting point of spirituality.It is not to be confused with that which belongs to this world.It cannot be something worldly.

Asking for equality before God for a man women or an animal is not perversion.Blindly following the rituals and traditions even though they mean a lot of harm and degradement of others IS.

In fact anything that restricts men and women in the matters of God(or even society) is the real perversion.Any thing that discriminates men and divides them into clans is the real perversion.

I agree to your point that SRI RAMAKRISHNA PARAMAHAMSA WAS ABOVE DEEKSHA.we are the ones who need the deeksha.So we need the sacred thread too to remind us of our dharma.

now the real question is this...

If a sacred thread is a reminder of ones good dharma and if really reminds one from doing sins why shouldn it NOT be given to all the four classes of men?.

Why should someone based on his birth get it where as somebody else who has been born similarly be denied its priviledges.
That is the question.I dont question the sacred thread per se but I question the priviledges that it brings.who decides who is a brahmin?.

The scriptures tell us but as we have already agreed they can be construed by different men in different ways.

That is the point of Sri Rama krishna.That he was not born with the sacred thread from his mothers womb.That he has to rid of it to go to God.That it comes from divisions given to men by men.

you say an unrighteous man should not discard it.I feel that the basic step is to find out what is unrighteous and discard it at once.That is the first step of ANY MAN when he wants to take the difficult path towards God.
And it is a difficult path because it means a lot of unlearning is required.Spirituality is a very difficult.

I agree with your emphasis about the greatness of Sri SHANKARACHARYA.He did fall at the feet of the chandala.I would have done the same because at that point the chandala became his Guru.I WILL NOT HESITATE.

My question about Sri Shankaracharya is mostly about the books which he wrote before the afore said incident.He fell at the feet of SHIVA and says I was in Ignorance till now prabhu you have opened my eyes.

I agree with one thing that in a spiritual path all questions make no sense when we question our conduct before God and other men.The basic question for everyone of us is to look at our conduct.

What i take strong exception to is the other things you have discussed.

The question between SAME and Equal.

It is very wrong to say that all castes are equal but not same.such a notion by itself is unjustified and ignorant.It holds the seeds of all the divisions that a man can think OF.

When we take of the question of caste from a human being such a question will not arise.Different castes have different roles in the society and the primary question is who is the one who gives them those roles.
If we call people with names that they dont want to be called or give them roles that they dont want to take on then that is gross injustice and no God will every forgive us.

I dont think that Buddhas classification is anywhere comparable to the caste system as we know it.His classification to monks and bikkus was more about the monk order and has nothing to do with the capabilities of the monks.or their perceived capabilities..

your answer to that of reinstatement is faulty in my opinion.You sir have never questioned the system of injustice that goes on in our country.That is the difference between your ideas and mine.The basic things if we dont discard how will we discard our egos for the shake of God?.


There in that story a chandala believes he is a chandala.I question that belief of his.I also dont believe that a brahmin is a brahmin and that both are equal before God and both are SAME.Intellectual indifferences should not be spread to spiritual areas.

I have observed that all your answers are surrounded by ideas of itellect which by itself dosent work for the growth of spirituality. your explanation taking the students and a teacher dont fit the bill.Simply because intellect is there to help one take care of worldly things and that way one is not the same.but i am talking of spiritual things which dont reach to the ends of any intelligence of this earth.That way all beings are same.

Intellect is given for a person by GOD to take care of worldly affairs and we have to discard it to reach GOD.
Intellect actually makes one question the existence of GOD.

So the question of wrong book entry dosent come at all.A person was told that he was a chandala and now he relises that he is not.He is a supreme being and above all these worldly intellectual and man made differences.

SO when there was never a wrong book of entry where is the question of correcting it in the first place even for governmental purpose.

I know that all these opinions of mine will make you throw me away from your forum but still I am against reinstatement.

Marriage ,Hospitals and things like that are needed to put some order to the society.They have a purpose but the system of caste as it is administered in our society serves no purpose no matter how many apologists give how many examples.
That is what buddha realised and that is why all the chandalas and all the prostitutes and all the people of all the classes were looked as same and equal.Budda was the only brahmin or in fact above the shackels of brahminism and such restricting thoughts.

Yes a scientist belongs to a Scientist class but before GOD and in his path he is one and the same.He is just like you and me.I mean initially and from there our journey begins.For God it really dosent matter to what he is or what he was on this earth.

Socially it makes a lot of difference but social mores are to be transcedented rigtht.NANA IS A GOOD EXAMPLE.SO is the case of DASA GANU.SAI BABA TOLD THEM TO GO ABOVE THESE CLASSES FOR that reason only.

I am against reinstatement even if its a social act.Because society is not always right and it will be in ignorance.The world will go its way ....but religion cant differentiate you based on your intellect or intelligence because society will do it in the end.What belongs to society will in the end belong to this world and not to spirituality.When i am spiritually advanced what is the need of societal acceptance or not.That too a society that i have discarded for the shake of GOD.So no reinstatement is needed.I love SAI BABA FOR THAT REASON ONLY.

ABOUT PATIVRATA ASPECTS.

I did not say that a women should be disloyal and things like that.I said that to tell a women that her husband is God is very wrong and it is actually restricting her from reaching her fullness before God.

All the women saints had to leave their husbands to reach God and normal women are made to believe wrong aspects like making them believe that HER husband is aher GOD which is a flawed concept of the middle ages.
This aspect makes her to believe that she is not equal to a man.As i said i am talking of spiritual things and you are talking of worldly things.

Societally A man should take care of his wife and be loyal to her.A women should take care of him and be loyal.I agree but at no point can we say that she should worship her husband.It makes a lot of women to belive that men can never be wrong and that they are gods etc.

Which is a flawed concept.I just like my wife will make mistakes and will have sinful thoughts and am imperfect.So how can i ask her to worship me?.is that not telling some one to restrict themselves.IT is actually chaining her.

Since you say that what happens to one after death is some thing we dont know.I will say that intellectually we never know but going by scriptures we can discuss the matter here.

In The Autobiography of a YOGI Yogananda swamis guru Laahiri mahasaya says " The women who is my wife in this life was my sister in my previous life". I mean this is just one example and there are many examples like this which say that once you die your karmic ties are reinstated and that is the reason why we should meditate as much as possible so that they can be broken.


I dont know if questioning such things amount to perversion and if some of masters deciples have also questioned SRI Guru Charitra as you have written then I must say that I am one of them.I wish I could have really asked MASTER GARU ABOUT IT.
He is the only one who would have answered my questions even thought they amount to perversion in your opinion.

Budda says that since you have intellect and since you use it to question so many things that benifit you .......try to question those that dont benifit others.In fact he says do not believe me also with out questioning .....So i cannot believe things and accept them with out questions....

I feel that we should stop this discussion her because it can hurt others in this forum and I really dont want to do that at any cost.
In the hearts of men lies God.

and when i say men i mean ALL MEN.

thank you for your input sir and
may babaji and master garu enlighten us.

with regards

Kiran


ananthbabladi_old

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2007, 07:29:55 PM »
Jai Sai Master! Ravi garu!

Let me start over again. I would like to discuss each every point taken by You Ravi garu.

Anamoly: A child newly born cannot even say "oohs and aahs". Then slowly he says that. Then he learns to say "mom" and "dad". Then elders teach him abcd. then words, then sentences and so on. Eqaute that to a class. Will I consider myself insulted if I am said, "look mr, you applied for MS Computer science with only 12 years education, and so, even by testing standards, if we were to give you a seat into MS, then we would like you to take some test to see whether you are capable or not. If not, we are really sorry, but you have to start from 13th class and maybe after 4 years, you will be automatically eligible. But if you pass, then we don't have any objections in giving you a seat".

In the above case, I would not feel hurt or bad. I will take the tests. Passed? I break in. Failed, I will study more and maybe take the classes as advised by them. If not, every student is a PHd and every student is a scholar. Why is it not happening?

It is the skewed mind of a human to be seeing everything in a linear fashion and 3 dimensions. Linear is not the only way and 3D is not the only way. In the same way, a Chandala on the bottom of a ladder is seen in this modern world in a linear way and say, "poor fellow is at the bottom of the ladder". And we don't know what exists beyond that. But please do bear in mind, a 100 storey building has its base. A house has its base, without which there is no structure which can stand. It is basically to know who stands at where. Nowhere is it said that a chandaala has to be looked down upon.
Quote:

You said: where is the question of reinstatement when he is a soul of the high order.It is nothing but agnana or ignorance if a sudra who has by the merit of his deeds has brahmin traits to ask to be reinstated because for a all pervading soul and that which is never born and will never die where is the question of reinstatement?.
 

My answer: Let's say if a sudra by his agnana asked to be reinstated inspite of knowing that his soul is of high order and that there is no question of reinstatement. How would he know that he (his soul) is of highest order? Two ways! One, he keeps on taking janma after janma after janma to know that he is of the highest order. And I really cannot predict how long this will take. Two, he will realize that he is of the highest order. And he attains liberation. First case, who is going to take care of him? if he takes birth after birth after birth? His sadguru. Eventually there comes a time, when He approaches a Sadguru (usually it is the other way around but for arguments' sake, let's put the ball in the court of the Chandaala) and then the Sadguru prescribes lessons to go higher in knowledge. And this is exactly is what is called reinstating.

Why do we need to feel bad with the word "Reinstated" when every thing that we do in our lives is reinstating. The cell phone bills that we pay late, our account is reinstated. The class that we discontinue in our university, we again will be reinstated. And I can go on and on about reinstatements.

Going back, second case, a chandaala realizes that he is of the highest soul, then nobody needs to reinstate. He is soon going to merge in the infinite.

At this point, before I forget, in Sri Guru Charitra, non-brahmins are the ones who went up the highest, by Sri Guru's blessings. Parvatesudu. The muslim king who himself was a washerman. More on this a little later.

But I would like to try to answer your queries one by one.

Quote:
You said: I dont mean to hurt you..i just would like to question the purpose of this so called division between men based of gunas.When by birth every one is a sudhra why divide them?.
 

My attempt: Who are you? Answer me from a point of a human. Please don't tell me you are the soul with highest knowledge. Yes we all are. But when we are born, we take the tendencies of a combination of our previous births, our parentage, and then develop from there. So, on that issue, tell me who are you? Ok, I will ssay who I am. I am born, into a family, and then I am given a name. And that's about it. From then on, our situations, the way we are raised, the sorroundings, the way we learn, we WILL BECOME THAT. Now, I will give you another very very interesting scenario.

In a hospital, a brahmin woman (again taking modern world into consideration) gives birth to a son. But is unconscious. That boy is taken secretly by the nurse and put into the cradle of another woman who is of another class, let's say a beggar (please bear in mind, this is only for comparision, for in my view, every single being is respectable. There are always unscrupulous fellows who take advantage not just in the name of class, but in the name of religion, God, and what not.) in the next room, because that woman's son is born dead. Now, everything is forgotten. Please tell me, how would that kid be raised? Two ways that I can think of. One, the son will be given gradual training in Begging. Two, let's say, the beggar woman is a lady who never gives up fighting in the society, and so she wants her son to study and become a Businessman, a Doctor, an engineer, a scientist, and let's say for arguement's sake, that she succeeds. Either way, that boy becomes that way. A beggar or a high intellect. According tos his upbringing. Now, there is nothing wrong in saying what's wrong with begging. But if he concentrates only on begging, then he cannot learn other things. Then where is the knowledge? After all, knowledge beings with the outside and ends with the inside. Why we do study so many things? Why are we curious? And if that beggar is raised as such and still if he learns everything by himself, even then he is an intellect and he will grow that way. Nothing in this universe can stop him.

Take the whole above example, do the exact opposite. A beggar's son is taken into the Brahmin woman's room, because Brahmin woman's son is dead. Now how is the boy raised? 2 ways, a Brahmin learning many ways, or he is not taught anything at all. Depending on that, he will grow into that. Let's say he is not taught anything at all, then is not an intellect, and he is a dud. And if he taught, then he will grow into something. And just like above, the 3rd angle is, he not taught, and he still learns by himself to be knowledgeable.

My whole point in the painstakingly long description above is to tell you, that we all have latent tendencies. Our souls are highest. But we don't realize that. So, according to what we become, from that point on, we have to pick ourselves up! I REPEAT AGAIN Ravi garu, according to how we are raised and what we become, our anveshana, our quest for knowledge, our quest to realize our soul, starts from that point on.

We cannot just reinstate a 8 year old boy into a PHd program. In the same way, a PHd person will not be stripped of his status, if he shows those qualities. But a PHd status will be stripped off him, he does not show it, and if he got it in some other way. And if he has amnesia or alzheimers, then he will be rested and not given any job compared to Phd. And exactly the same way, there were some brilliant examples, rare but brilliant, where 10 year kids breezed through college!! Again, it is the tendency and how he acquired the knowledge. Combination of previous birth's tendencies, present growth, and his Karma.

In the olden times, it was never stopped. Due growth was always allowed. It is during the later stages that it was misinterpreted and then it is all the way downhill to the present times.

Quote:
You said: Any way my opinion is that one should not follow any spiritual book blindly and I am sure that Master garu would agree with me.
Similarly one should not follow all traditions just because we have nothing to lose in those matters.
 
My attempt: Spiritual Book, We SHOULD READ IT. Especially, timeless books like Sri Guru Charitra, Guru Gita, Bhagavatam, Ramayanam, Quran, Bible. They are all timeless. They transcend everything else. And you yourself contradicted her Ravi garu. You said, Mahatmas like Sri Sai should help us understand the scriptures. And it is 101% true. For every scripture. For every holy book. With time, like I said, in my previous posts, Sri Sai will tell you and answer all your doubts. Till that time, we MUST take it by face value. For this, another example. You said, we should not follow any spiritual book blindly. Then why are we following Science books to get our Research done? Why are we following Business books to learn that subject? It is mere theory, we haven't proved it. If you say you proved it, how did you prove it? Let's say, there is a proven theory that Fire burns. For that, the experiment follows to PROVE it. Light a candle, put your hand on it, get burnt and then we certify that "yes" Fire burns. In the same way, Scriptures have rules. One of the many millions being follow the classes. Why? The scriptures says the reasons. Can you believe blindly? Don't. Try to prove it. And for that, there are steps. Spiritual steps. Unfortunately, Science, is microscopically time based, means, many expermients can be done in a life time. So we all live to see it. But spiritual theories and its proofs are MACROSCOPICALLY time based, lasting several life times. Case in point? Vedas being studied, by Bharadwaja Maharshi, and after 1000s of years, He still hasn't learnt much. Consider yourself in that time, with lesser age span, are you physical and mentally present to see Bharadwaja's learning into culmination? No. So, I urge you, to see the end of it. See the end of the sacred scriptures, and see whether it is true or not. I can gurantee you Ravi garu, it is more harful to you (none others) NOT to believe than to believe and then decide for yourself. So, in this matter, I am 100% with Babu garu. YOU MUST (you in the sense, every being must with its intellect) believe. Then time being a great leveller, will answer you in any form.

One more example before I stop this particular point. You said, we should not blindly follow any spiritual book. You listen to a radio, saying 5 km down the line, there is a fire in a factory building and that, that particular road is blocked, take alternate route. Will you say, you should not believe the newscaster? You better believe it, and take alternative route. Otherwise, you are stuck. And if the newscaster is infact wrong and you go that way, you have not lost anything. You are happily going down the road than all those people who believed the newscaster and went another long way. In either case, you you have to believe the newscaster(please note carefully, you are either doing the opposite or the same thing that was asked by newscaster). What did you lose?

Ravi garu, I can give many more examples. but again my point is, it is better to believe the scriptures. If you are so doubtful, like I said, see the end of it. Vivekananda was asked "come my child, I will show you God" by some person. And HE said, "Good sir that you have seen God, but no Thanks, I will try to find HIM myself" and HE did.

Quote:
You said: SIMPLY because religion is the starting point of spirituality.It is not to be confused with that which belongs to this world.It cannot be something worldly.
 
My attempt: How do you define "worldly" and "outside" in terms of spirituality? Sai Leelamrutam and Sri Guru Charitra says, the world with full of persons, things, places, objects to the extent of atoms and molequles, help us in realizing the ultimate reality, through scriptures, through holy books, through Sadguru. If we dont understand them, the very same world will become what it has become now, for all mankind. So, your differentiation of Spiritual being "out of the world" and non-spiritual being "in the world" is a little controversial. Going a little deeper, Guru Gita says, if we understand sacred books, if we understand and serve our Sadguru, then this whole world will be seen as God.
So, this world with Society and its various aspects are teachers for us to ultimately realize God. The very basis of Spirituality will be destroyed if we say "this outside" "that is inside".

Quote:
You said: Asking for equality before God for a man women or an animal is not perversion.Blindly following the rituals and traditions even though they mean a lot of harm and degradement of others IS.

In fact anything that restricts men and women in the matters of God(or even society) is the real perversion.Any thing that discriminates men and divides them into clans is the real perversion.
 
My attempt: You don't need to ask for an equality. Men, Women, and animals (infact non-living pbjects) are all equal. It is the man, the mean man, the devious man, down the ages, who differentiated and created non-equality. And our point (mine and Babu Garu's with whom I agree) has been the same throughout. The filtration of knowledge to the devious purpose of man. In Sri Guru Charitra, Sri Guru looked upon all of them equally. But he prescribed different things to persons of different temperments. You have 2 kids. One is 3rd class. One is 12 class. Would you prescribe the same knowledge path for growth? But even among Sri Guru's times, some dubious persons are there, who might have said, "Sri is creating non-equality". But a Sadguru knows about His devotees, spanning not just this life, but many millions of lives, in the forms of insects, animals, man!!! The devious person does not know this.

So, I am sorry to say but this is definitely not a degradement.

At this point, I would like to ask you Ravi garu, what is so bad about a ritual or a tradition? Both of them are both bad and good, based on how we interpret. Sachin Tendulkar, in his prime form had a ritual before a big match. He came early in the morning, to the pitch, imagines himself standing there facing the toughest bowlers, and then he succeeded in actually facing them and scoring runs. Einstein had some rituals. And so do you and me. Any ritual which is useful to gain knowledge and go higher is good. Any ritual which harms humans (like Sati) is bad. Tradition!! Again the same thing. You gain insight into various traditions, people, socities, cultures, countries, and in the futures, different planets. YOU GAIN KNOWLEDGE and like I said before, taken from Sri Guru Charitra, knowledge fro outside leads us to the inside, if not now, atleast in the next few millions of lives.

Now continuing, again, anything and anybody restricted is not wise. And mahatmas (including the book Sri Guru Charitra) never restricted. They just specified. And they definitely specified. For this, I have to take other religions into account again. If you are so against with classes, then religion itself is a class to realize spirituality. Why muslims? Why christians? Why Hindus? Why Zoarashtrians? They are the pathways to Godhood. Again, unfortunately, as you are seeing now, Christian is hating a muslim, muslim is hating a Hindu, and a Hindu is hating a Muslim, it is all a big mess. Because we haven't understood the religion. And we have definitely not understood the class. Men and women were given different presciptions to reach the same goal.

Taking the same price-less points from Sri Guru Charitra, if we ask why classes and discrimination, it goes to the most fundamental of the questions. Why men and women? Simple biological and evolutional answer is not enough. Really, why men and women? Why not a person, with same body parts, same hieght, everything same? Taking your same example of Autobiography of a Yogi, there is one more chapter, where Sri Yukteswar comes alive (after His mahasamadhi) to his Disciple, and says of a satya loka, where there is no gender. No negetive or positive emotions. No hatred. No love. Just a state of bliss. And Sri Yukteswar specifies that they come from the worlds below them ( in terms of status) having reaped and worked through various levels. It applies here in our discussion. Why Men and Women? Why Religion? Why planets? life? There must be a reason. I for sure would like to know, and I would follow blindly until I rach my goal. Because God has promised, that He will appear in the form of Sadguru and when I am ready He will lead me through that Sadguru. Until that time, I will keep rising, keep falling, keep rising and falling and so on.

(continued below..)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 07:31:32 PM by Dwarakanath »
-----------------------
Jai Sai Ram
Jai Sai Master
Jai Sai Swamy

ananthbabladi_old

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2007, 07:30:25 PM »

(Continued..)

Quote:
You said: If a sacred thread is a reminder of ones good dharma and if really reminds one from doing sins why shouldn it NOT be given to all the four classes of men?.
 
My attempt: It was! It is not, now!! Rishis, Sadhus, Gandharvas, Yakshas, Kimpurushas, and many more were the groups at that time. Being called a Brahmarshi, was important for Vishwamitra. Master garu has given very nice descriptions about Sage Vishwamitra. He tried many ways, to be called but he was not given that status, based on his tendencies. Could he have tried to move around claiming to be a Brahmarshi? Probably not, please forgive my sin, definitely not!! But if he did, even then he would not have achieved anything, let alone Godhood and infinite bliss. Because of his tendencies, one of them being, He killed the sons of the sage Vasishta. Let's say, I want to be called as Sachin Tendulkar or a Michael Jordan, and nobody agrees in atleast my particular circle. Because Sachin Tendulkar or a Michael Jordan are class apart in their respective knowledges, that of being the finest sportspersons. But me? yes, I can kick my wife and my daughter and make them say my name as Sachin, the great batsmen or Michael, the greatest basketballer. But that's about it. They will agree. But I have no tendencies. Eventually, there comes a time, when I get obsessed, and I start killing people, to accept me as Sachin or Michael (please remember, I am talking about status, not name). I kill one, ten, hundreds, millions, but still, all I AM is a killer. No sportsperson. Conversely, I work my ass of, practise, practise, practise, then I can become sportsperson, the finest. So, what is is that I wanted to say? In order to learn something, I need to follow that.

And in the same way, different classes were given gradual lessons to follow to BECOME THAT. And nobody was restricted. And nobody was allowed as it is. It is trial by fire.


Quote:
You said: The scriptures tell us but as we have already agreed they can be construed by different men in different ways
 
My attempt: There is no attempt. I am not qualified to go further in this point. Only Lord Sainath can give you the time and the necessary knowledge in this.

Quote:
You said: That is the point of Sri Rama krishna.That he was not born with the sacred thread from his mothers womb.That he has to rid of it to go to God.That it comes from divisions given to men by men.
 
My attempt: Taking Babu garu's example, it applies only to the stature of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. Vivekananda, was asked by a westerner, "if you claim India to be so great, where were we at that time?" He replied "you fool, you were in the caves, rubbing stone against stone". But only He was qualified in that. IF we did it, I mean if we were to even come closer to that type of answer, even then, we not being transcendental, will develop hatred towards other countries, religions, castes, and men in general, ALL THE WAY.

Quote:
You said: you say an unrighteous man should not discard it.I feel that the basic step is to find out what is unrighteous and discard it at once.That is the first step of ANY MAN when he wants to take the difficult path towards God. And it is a difficult path because it means a lot of unlearning is required.Spirituality is a very difficult.
 
My attempt: How do you find what is unrighteous? In the Satya Yuga, not a single person lied. It was unrighteous, as specified by realized sages. But in the Kali Yuga, it was further divided, and it still is ok to lie in some accounts and not in some. But it is not unrighteous. Because it is reinterpreted by Sages of today, by realized souls of today. So, it is of utmost importance to follow the scriptures interpreted and re-interpreted by Sages of our times. And, again, if you look closely, it is really not that hard. You just have to be open to your heart and wait for a "out of this world" instruction from a realized soul. Like, read Sai Leelamrutam, Sri Guru Charitra, and Dattareya Swamy will guide you properly. We just cannot define what is righteous and what is not righteous. If we go otherwise, then we should consider Sai Baba to be mad fakir. Sadguru Gagde maharaj was scolded with foul words, frowned upon, beaten, by Sri Sai. Anybody who cannot understand that gesture by Sri Sai, would consider Sai to be a mad man. But He is not. He made His devotee into an INSTANT realized soul. And only that devotee knows. Because His heart said so. And he followed blindly. Tell me, frankly, what would you do if you were to now know the greatness of Sai Baba and if you were in the place of that devotee, with your present state of mind? Please think about it.

Quote:
You said: When we take of the question of caste from a human being such a question will not arise.Different castes have different roles in the society and the primary question is who is the one who gives them those roles.
If we call people with names that they dont want to be called or give them roles that they dont want to take on then that is gross injustice and no God will every forgive us.
 
My attempt: God gave them the roles. Before you fire your answer that self-centred Brahmins created that, please read on. The sages who scripted these classifications, never ever said, they should be forced into the role. They only said, different people with different tendencies and propensities, fit those roles. If the people do not like a role, that were specified initially to them, there were prescriptions. Take my previous example of classes. And Ravi garu, you cannot say, we should not be comparing worldly things with spirituality. Again if you read above, this whole world is a God WITH EVERYTHING. So, going back, if a person does not like a role, that he was prescribed, He has options/chances/lessons to learn the role that he likes. It is simple science Ravi garu. Take the subject that you like discarding the ones that you don't like. If on prejudice, I am not given a chance, then YES, it is injustice. Same way, that person is done injustice. So, your view that a person been given a raw treatment, at all times, does not hold good. In the modern times, yes!

Quote:
You said: I dont think that Buddhas classification is anywhere comparable to the caste system as we know it.His classification to monks and bikkus was more about the monk order and has nothing to do with the capabilities of the monks.or their perceived capabilities
 
My attempt: a Monk is one who shows those qualities. A sage is one who shows those qualities. If he does not, then he has no right to be a monk, for he has to lead others with his right knowledge. And God has His mysterious ways to denounce his status, in the form of nature. Don't you think it is a classification then?

Quote:
you said: your answer to that of reinstatement is faulty in my opinion.You sir have never questioned the system of injustice that goes on in our country.That is the difference between your ideas and mine.The basic things if we dont discard how will we discard our egos for the shake of God?.
 
My attempt: I already tried to give my opinion on reinstatement. Simple. Putting the persons exactly where they need to be put, based on their tendencies, based on their growth, based on their qualifications. If lower, and they demonstrate higher, they WILL GO HIGHER, and again, God has mysterious ways to PUSH HIM HIGHER. Case in point, Parvatesa, in Sri Guru Charitra is a farmer, with most success given by Sri Guru.

And speaking of injustice, sir, injustice never belonged to a caste, a class, a religion, a country. Injustice is done by man on man, irrespective of all the above. It is our wrong perception to think so. We blame Pakistanis that they creating terrorists, and infiltrating into our country and killing innocents. And we ourselves, have gone into Sri Lanka, raped, killed, castrated many innocents as IPKF, thereby creating terrorists in their own way. Injustice happens because of the misuse of power. Not the misuse of a class or a caste. Raja Ram Mohan Roy abolished the caste system? Forgive me, beause I am a little poor in History, but at that time, lower castes were helpless, powerless, while self-aggrandizing higher caste people had power, and they saw an oppurtunity. If lower caste had power and money, and let's say, muslims were not, then both lower and higher castes together might have done injustice to the muslims. It is the question of power, and perhaps, in this entire thread, this is one thing, I can authoritatively disagree with you on and go the extent of saying you are wrong Ravi garu. I don't agree with you at all. Injustice does not depend on caste or class. Why? let me close this point from my side, by giving just another example of how bad power is. 80 years back, Israel was the most helpless country, it was not even a country. Palestine gave them help. Somewhere along the lines, something messed up, power hungry people came, USA helped Israel, and now???? And USA bombed Iraq. We see olnly one point of view. How many of us know that USA also bombed some of the holiest catholic churches that existed in Iraq (which were supported by Saddam??) It IS ALL POWER. Pure and simple.

Quote:
You said: There in that story a chandala believes he is a chandala.I question that belief of his.I also dont believe that a brahmin is a brahmin and that both are equal before God and both are SAME.Intellectual indifferences should not be spread to spiritual areas.
 
My attempt: Through intellect, we achieve spirituality. Tell me, how do you achieve spirituality? OR maybe I should ask, define Intellect!! For me through, intellect,I read books, I gain knowledge about meditation through books, discussions, and with the help of a teacher. Then I calm my mind, based on the knowledge gained through the above medium, namely Intellect. To me, intellect is the ability to know!!!! To know God at the top of the point, and to gain knowledge at the bottom of the point.

Quote:
You said: have observed that all your answers are surrounded by ideas of itellect which by itself dosent work for the growth of spirituality. your explanation taking the students and a teacher dont fit the bill.Simply because intellect is there to help one take care of worldly things and that way one is not the same.but i am talking of spiritual things which dont reach to the ends of any intelligence of this earth.That way all beings are same.
 
My attempt: teacher and student fits the bill in any form, not just on earth but in any part of the universe. Conversely sir, I keep repeating, spiritual things are there every where. God through the form of a Sadguru has asked us to do exactly that. And you are giving your point in the opposite direction. Knowledge of outside leads us to the kowledge of the inside, and after that, there is no "outside" no "inside" and no "wordly". Spiritual things does not need to reach the ends of intelligence of this earth. Because Spiritual things are Earth with its contents, namely species. Although I am keen to know from you, you keep repeating, wordly things, and spiritual things, can you please differentiate? Let's say, a spiritual person, say, Sai Baba, since you like Him, performs what a normal "earthly person" cannot. Like, hmm!! let's take any silly impossible (science wise according to today's standards) thing, like seeing through a wall. Sai can see through a wall, but we cannot. But scriptures have complex ways for us to follow to practise, and then eventually we can see through the wall too. And where is wall? Wall is definitely on Earth, and wall is a earthly thing, but after the necessary training, on this very Earth, we are performing that "non-earthly" thing.

Quote:
you said: Intellect is given for a person by GOD to take care of worldly affairs and we have to discard it to reach GOD.
Intellect actually makes one question the existence of GOD.
 
my attempt: compltely disagree with you. Intellect is given for a person by GOD, YES! but not just for worldy affairs, but to see God in everything and everybody. And in your case, to see God in every caste, creed, religions, and group. Infact everything, as in the case of Sri Sai, because He demonstrated that He is infact the inanimate Photos and Idols too. Again,Intellect actually makes one question the existence of GOD, YES!! and then we eventualy find that GOD IS!!!!!!

Quote:
You said: So the question of wrong book entry dosent come at all.A person was told that he was a chandala and now he relises that he is not.He is a supreme being and above all these worldly intellectual and man made differences
 
My attempt: I am a programmer, and I am said that I am an accountant, can I believe? no. But when a realized soul pours some udi on me, and makes me see what I was in my previous lives, and then awakens in me the stronger (compared to my present programmer tendencies and qualifications) accounting capabilities, yes, I will believe and I have to, because I am feeling that, with the power of UDI. But again, with the multi-dimensional views of time, as seen by a realized sage, He feels that I will self destruct myself, in this present life with my accounting capabilities, and that I need more lives or more time, He removes that udi, and I lose the memory and then again back to being a programmer, I only think of this present life. But The realized sage knows my back lives and the future lives, and it is his unconditional love, and the promise to God that every being reaches the Ultimate, that's why the realized soul did that. The exact same thing happened to Chandaala.

Quote:
You said: Socially it makes a lot of difference but social mores are to be transcedented rigtht.NANA IS A GOOD EXAMPLE.SO is the case of DASA GANU.SAI BABA TOLD THEM TO GO ABOVE THESE CLASSES FOR that reason only.
 
My attempt: The same Sri Sai Baba, slapped a person who changed his religion from Hindu to a muslim. Because Sri Sai wanted that person to follow the religion that he was born into. Sai did not say, "ok kid, from now on, you are a muslim, forget Hinduism". I repeat, Sri Sai wanted that person to follow his own tenets.

Quote:
Which is a flawed concept.I just like my wife will make mistakes and will have sinful thoughts and am imperfect.So how can i ask her to worship me?.is that not telling some one to restrict themselves.IT is actually chaining her.
 
My attempt: I think you have misunderstood the term called "worship". It just does not mean that woman is taking flowers and putting it on her husband's head, and then uttering mantras of God. It means, not slap Husband, it means not packing her bags at the outset, and leave the house, it means, trying to communicate, and get the husband to rason it out about his bad behaviour, it means, being patient, it means praying God (again Guru Charitra, did not say don't worhip God, only worship your husband. Guru Charitra said, worhip God, with all the rituals, paraphernalia, but also, see a God in the Husband. ). It means praying God to set right the Husband in a nice way. If I am immoral and have wrongful thoughts, eventually, my wife will know, and then based on her tendencies and propensities, she will either Pray to God and treat me nicely and slowly try to change me, or she will pack her bags and go. This how I understand. But again, 1000s of years back, in the time of Sati Savitri and other pativratas, I really cannot say, because most men were moral. There is not a slightest chance for immoral ways, because the punishments were that much stricter. In these days, I can get away with anything, from a sexual encounter with another woman to what not!!! So, Paativratyam and it's definition and its features have changed a lot, and it is unfair of us to be dorectly mapping its characteristics into the modern world.

Quote:
Budda says that since you have intellect and since you use it to question so many things that benifit you .......try to question those that dont benifit others.In fact he says do not believe me also with out questioning .....So i cannot believe things and accept them with out questions....
 
my attempt: before attempting, your questions are not perverse Ravi garu. But let's have intellectual and spiritual discussion. So, going forward, Master garu has told these interesting points.

Somebody questioned Him, "sir, Naanavalli asked Sri Sai to get up fro His seat to test Baba whether fame has gone to his head, and then after finding out that it has not, he again falls at the feet of Baba...in the same way, I would like to question the greatness of Baba". For this Master told, "yes, nanavalli definitely tested Baba, but after Baba's samadhi his love for Baba was so intense, and he died in just 13 days. Once you find out how great Baba is, then are you going to give up your life?"

In the same way, we do not have the blatant authority to question. First be inquisitive, and take it at the face value, irrespective of anything, test it out, then see the end of it, then come up with an answer and a result. Budha tested God and became God in a single life time. How many trillions of lives will we take? only Baba knows...........Since we are not that great that we can become Gods in one lifetime, we cannot question everything. What can we and what can we not? Even for that, depend on Scriptures, Sages, and realized Souls!!!! No option. Otherwise, we are sure to be Mukund Brahmachaaris of Sri Sai Leelamrutam hating a particular religion (in our case religion, caste, creed, group etc etc...and please dont feel offended Ravi garu, because many years back I used to hate westerners, but after coming into the divine Master fold, I am a changed person) and then taking life after life, of the very same thing which we hated..........

I will close this thread with a couple of points.
1) This entire thread is unedited...please ignore mistakes...
2) This entire thread is to only discuss in intellectual discussion leading towards Baba and Master...and not holding grudge against anything or anybody..
3) and a request to Master...with the quote that Sri Babu garu kept as his signature and which is timeless......and priceless...

"A diligent study of lives of saints, their acts and teachings would educate all aspirants to transcend the vicious, narrow barrier of religion and race and identify a true Sadguru." -- Master E.B.
-ananthbabladi


-----------------------
Jai Sai Ram
Jai Sai Master
Jai Sai Swamy

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2007, 07:32:11 PM »
Regarding pathivratha aspects etc., Master has mentioned in Telugu Gurucharithra under the title "Sree GuruCharithra lo sthree nindha?" There he mentions that these are not for those who lead normal life but only for those who decided to make moksha as center of their life. The same rules are there for sanyaasis also. As Master maintains referring Gita that those who are aiming moksha are only very few in Dwapara yuga itself. So these rules are not applicable to normal house holders.

Gurucharithra is important becuase of the blessing given by SriGurudu and so it s parayana is powerful and giving results and so is recommended by master. Otherwise I can also write a similar book which will not yield any result.

The Caste System has been one of the most misrepresented, misinformed, misunderstood, misused and the most maligned aspects of Hinduism.

Gandhi had a discussion with Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi(can find mention about him in Leelamrutham), a realised person and agreed that Caste System is required.

Here is a link on what swami gave discourses on caste system. By clicking "Next" you can go to next pages. It is not what was discussed with Gandhi:
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap1.htm

The following site is excellent source of info on several aspects of hinduism. Here is what is about caste system:
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Caste_System.htm

My Views:
1. Caste system was introduced with a good purpose but we are using it for wrong purpose.
2. The culprits are brahmins according to Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi Swamy.
3. Any way the caste system served its purpose and becoming extinct now. Now it is high time for us to listen to what mahatmas say and follow their words in these critical times as only they can save us. So better not to argue against anything. As Baba says "Do not talk ill of anything". We can not understand what is right and what is wrong with our little minds.


-Sudhakar

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2007, 07:34:39 PM »
Jai Sai Master!

Ravigaru,

Firstly I must apologize for saying that some one is a pervert. What I meant was that One who says "Gurucharitra" is bad, when Masters or Scriptures say it isnt, has a PERVERTED VIEW POINT. But please forgive me as it came out in the wrong note. I dont call anyone a pervert for holding opinions at all. If I do so, I would be the biggest pervert. What I couldnt stand was that when Master and Baba said its right, some one merely mortal and ignorant to say its wrong, must be a form of perversion. All I am saying is that no one should say blindly that it is wrong. Whether it is right or wrong, one should pray to Baba, think and then decide. Blindly opinionating is wrong. Such blind opinionating persons clearly have perversion rooted in their personality. Infact, such blind opinionating is the cause of today's wrong caste system and injustice. All those who follow such perverted notions as todays implementation of caste system are either perverts or Supreme beings doing so for a reason.

HERE ARE THE THINGS THAT I STAND BY (WHICH MATCH WITH MOST OF WHAT YOU SAID):

1. DONOT ACCEPT ANYTHING BLINDLY. ALSO, DO NOT REJECT ANYTHING BLINDLY.
2. SCRIPTURES HAVE TO BE READ AND STRUGGLED WITH AND PRAYED FOR UNDERSTANDING. ONLY A POORNAPURUSHA CAN SOLVE QUESTIONS IN THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY.
3. ORIGINAL CASTE SYSTEM IS RIGHT. MODERN IS WRONG. MODERN CASTE SYSTEM MUST BE DENOUNCED. ORIGINAL CASTE SYSTEM MUST BE UNDERSTOOD SO THAT ANYTHING THAT REPLACES THE CURRENT WRONG SYSTEM BE CORRECT.
4. MASTER'S OR BABA'S OPINIONS CANT BE TAKEN LIGHTLY, IF WE DONT AGREE WITH THEM, IT MEANS THAT WE ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING THEM IN THE RIGHT LIGHT. WE SHOULD TRY TO SEE WHY MASTER OR BABA SAID SO. I APPRECIATE AND RESPECT YOU FOR COMING FORWARD TO ASK A QUESTION LIKE THIS ON THIS FORUM. WE ARE MIGHTY DELIGHTED BY YOUR PRESENSE ON THIS FORUM. WE DONT THROW ANYONE AWAY FOR NOT AGREEING WITH OUR VIEWS. THATS AGAINST MASTER'S PHILOSOPHY. PLEASE STAY ON THIS FORUM AND PLEASE DISCUSS. YOU ARE HELPING US ALL IMPROVE AND IN DOING SO, YOU ARE BABA'S BLESSINGS FOR US.
5. WE NEED AN AUTHORITY TO ANSWER QUESTIONS. AS YOU SAID, IF MASTER WAS STILL IN HIS BODY, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A DIRECT APPROACH ASKING HIM QUESTIONS. I TOTALLY AGREE. YOU AND I DISCUSSING THIS MIGHT NOT SOLVE ANY PROBLEMS, BUT SURELY, IT WILL IMPROVE OUR UNDERSTANDING OF VARIOUS ANGLES. I TRULY, FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART, RESPECT YOU AND YOUR QUESTIONS AND OPINIONS. ONLY THAT I DONT AGREE WITH SOME OF THEM, SIMILARLY THAT YOU DONT AGREE WITH SOME OF MINE. I RESPECT THAT TOO.
6. REFORM IN THE PRESENT DAY SOCIETY IS A MUST. TODAY'S CASTE SYSTEM IS TOTALLY WRONG. INFACT, I PERSONALLY LOST A JOB OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE I DIDNT WRITE ANYTHING IN THE "CASTE" COLUMN OF THE RECRUITMENT FORM. I TOLD THE COMPANY THAT ASKING FOR SUCH A THING IS GROSS INJUSTICE TOWARDS HUMANKIND AND TOWARDS MOTHER INDIA. I UNDERSTAND THE INJUSTICE TAKING PLACE NOW. BUT I STAND BY THE FACT THAT INJUSTICE IS NOT DUE TO CASTES BUT DUE TO PERVERTED PEOPLE. COUNTRIES WHERE THERE ARE NO CASTES ALSO HAVE INJUSTICE. CASTESYSTEM, AS PRESCRIBED BY MAHARSHIS ISNT WRONG. IT IS INNATELY CORRECT AND LOGICAL. TODAYS USE OF IT IS WRONG. IT MUST BE ABOLISHED IN ITS CURRENT FORM.
7. SCRIPTURES MUST BE READ AND UNDERSTOOD, RATHER THAN BLINDLY OPINIONATED AND IGNORED.

I would request you and everyone else to accept my apologies for the use of word "PERVERT" in my previous post. I did so deliberately. I still think that anyone who BLINDLY THINKS GURUCHARITRA IS WRONG, has a perversion angle to his personality. I didnt mean to say that you are a pervert. I know you are not, because you are questioning. The fact that you asked how to read Gurucharitra means that you are a JIGNASU and i humbly bow to your feet. But please dont hurt anyone again by saying right out that "GURUCHARITRA IS RESTRICTING". Be more open and say "GURUCHARITRA MIGHT BE A RESTRICTING SCRIPTURE".

I would wait for your reply as to whether what points I wrote in this post you agree and what you dont. That would make us come to the same frequency so that we can both benifit from each other. Also,

Which scriptures do you accept as authority? Which saints do you accept as authority? As that might help us discuss with sitations. For me, I accept
BHAGAVATGITA, ANY BOOK BY MASTER, BHAGAVATAM AND RAMAYANAM as authorities. I accept BUDDHA, MASTER, SAI BABA, RAMANA MAHARSHI, RAMAKRISHNA PARAMAHAMSA as authorites. I must mention that I dont yet accept "PARAMAHAMSA YOGANANDA" as an authority. Some of Master's devotees told me that Master said that he is a fraud and that much of what he wrote as his experiences in "Autobiography of a Yogi" arent his experiences but wrote other's opinions as his for fame sake. I have not directly heard Master say that. So, I dont hold any opinion towards YOGANANDA. I dont accept him as an authority since i dont know whether he is right or wrong.

Jai Sai Master!

-Dwarakanath

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"A diligent study of lives of saints, their acts and teachings would educate all aspirants to transcend the vicious, narrow barrier of religion and race and identify a true Sadguru." -- Master E.B.

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2007, 07:35:38 PM »
Jai Jai Sainadh ata pahudave mandiri ho...

Jai Sai Master......

Dwarakanadh garu ...Namaskaram...

I would like to thank you for clearing some of the doubts that i have.

It is true that we have to understand the scriptures in the right light and that too with the help of a Guru.Otherwise I think our own bad tendencies will lead us to to go astray and take us towards the path of destruction based on these very scriptures.Not every reading helps because as Master garu has said 'The purpose of reading should be to know and if leads us to pride its of no use at all'.

Books as such will not grant us any liberation.Based on our nature they will either help us or lead us to the wrong way of thinking.They will ofcourse help us to take basic steps.And still we will falter and fall and get up and so on but in the end our GURU is the one who will save us or teach us the right path.

IT happened with NANA who really thought he knew the Bhagawat Geeta till BABA corrected him.So reading books and trying to understand them with our intellect is a little dangerous thing not always ...not to all people ...but sometimes with some people...

I agree one should pray to BABA for the right path.

I would like to (since you have asked) give you my my side of ideas on the questions you posed here.

(1. DONOT ACCEPT ANYTHING BLINDLY. ALSO, DO NOT REJECT ANYTHING BLINDLY. )


I agree completely with you with this above statement that we should not reject anyting blindly and my rejection of Sri Guru charitra was not so blind as I have stated my reasons to you.One can call it a blind rejection when one simply rejects a scripture based on what he or she has heard from someone without reading it themselves.I have read it and when I read it I thought a lot about why it was pricribed by SAI BABA.

AND in the end the answer came to me.That is why I say that my rejection of Sri Guru charitra is not complete.I simply dont agree with some of its contents.I would like to say one thing that Sri Ramakrishna paramahamsa said ' IF you mix sand and sugar and put them before ants they will pick the sugar and leave the sand.Similarly we have to take the best out of religious scriptures and leave the bad'.

So I thought about it and the answer came to me.The importance of a Guru cannot be known to us from any other scripture except from Guru charitra.That is why SAI Baba of shiridi said that one should read it.

It is one scripture that says that a Guru is higher than all the GODS that we know.No other scripture says that and that was the purpose why Sai Baba asked his deciples to read it.

That is how I understood it.

I remember how shocked I was when I FIRST READ it(I remember promising myself never to read it again) and it has lingered in my heart to ask someone of its importance since then.

That is why i asked all of you about it in this forum.




i MAY BE WRONG ...JUST AS YOU COULD BE WRONG TOO...we dont know....


(ORIGINAL CASTE SYSTEM IS RIGHT. MODERN IS WRONG. MODERN CASTE SYSTEM MUST BE DENOUNCED. ORIGINAL CASTE SYSTEM MUST BE UNDERSTOOD SO THAT ANYTHING THAT REPLACES THE CURRENT WRONG SYSTEM BE CORRECT.)

I simply dont agree with the caste system.It all started with professions and ended up with priviledge people writing special books to support it and finally what we have today is a big mess.

So original caste system as you say doesnt exist.I dont have the correct proof to point this out but i did read somewhere that it all started during later times.
In fact the mordern caste system with its mordern outlook and changing times is far better than the olden one in which there was no freedom for the so called lower classes.

(MASTER'S OR BABA'S OPINIONS CANT BE TAKEN LIGHTLY, IF WE DONT AGREE WITH THEM, IT MEANS THAT WE ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING THEM IN THE RIGHT LIGHT.)

I agree with you over this point completely.I would have been with master garu and asked him a lot of questions if i were with him.I think that he would have cleared my doubts but also i sometimes feel that he would have agreed with me in some aspects.

I agree with you that to blindly say something is wrong is a perversion but i have reasons for what I said so i dont count among perverts.

I agree with your point that GURU CHARITRA MEIGHT BE A RESTRICTING SCRIPTURE.

I accept RAMAYANA AS A AUTHORITY except for one story.

In Ramayana there is a story that a brahmins son is killed by accident or something.
The brahmins go to Sri Rama and complain that there is some adharma in your kingdom otherwise why would our kid die.So Sri Rama finds out what is the adharma and in the end it is found that a DALIT or a lower class person has done a yagna.Sri Rama goes to him and kills him.

This story I heard is in ramayana and written in my opinion by someone of the brahmin community to keep other castes away from yagnas and yagas and things like that.

I asked some people about this story and one person told me that even though RAMAYAN WAS WRITTEN by a dalit himself ...Valmiki Maharshi..in the later ages it could have been rewritten by the pandits who were the only ones who has authority to do so.The other classes were uneducated those times and were prowerless.I dont know what is true but mostly I love the ramayana.

The best thing about Ramayana is that everyone is perfect.Perfect Husband...perfect wife .....perfect brothers....perfect daasa.....
That is why I accept it and like it a lot.

I dont accept mahabharat.But thats too personal to explain.

we have to understand the scriptures in the right light and also we have to show intelligence and try to take off what is right from them while leaving those aspects that lead us astray.

I accept BUDDHA who rose against the evils of hinduism (of the middle ages) and started the bodhi dharma which accepted sudhras into the path and treated women as equal.even prostitutes and all kinds of sinful people were in the order of buddist monks.

People think that buddism is a part of hinduisam but it is well known that it was one religion that rose against hinduism of its times.That is the reason why Dr Ambedkar took to it after renouncing hinduism but thats another story.

I read Ramana Maharshi ,Sri Rama krishna paramahamsa and Sai BABA and accept them as authority.

I also accept the Bible especially the new testament but have serious reservations against the QURAN AND many aspects of ISLAM.

I would like to thank you for clearing some of my doubts.

with regards,

Kiran.(ravifrom)

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2007, 07:36:00 PM »
Jai SAI BABA JAI MASTER GARU,

DEAR ANANT GARU,

I AM IN AWE OF YOU and Dwarakanath garu.I really am very happy with the way you have answered the questions of mine with so much patience and so elaborately.

your opinions are in the brackets sir..

(Sadguru prescribes lessons to go higher in knowledge. And this is exactly is what is called reinstating.)

I m not against what you have said above.Sri Guru Charita does not say as you have explained it in the above manner.It assumes that the chandalas are chandalas because of their birth and then proposes a reinstatement.

I really dont want to be reinstated into the brahmin fold.For me its a affront to GOD.To the highest levels of his work.TO tell him that I was born imperfect.
For me in this mordern world to be called a brahmin is a sin because then I assume the responsibility over all the terrible things that have happened in the name of this caste till now.Because to be reinstated will mean I no longer am a sudra as if that needs to be cast off and i refuse to do so.

I refuse to accept that brahmins are greater or better off then me.I refuse to accept that I need to be reinstated to a higher order.I was born equal like him and am equal to him now.

I prefer to go to God as a chandala only and dont want to be reinstated at all.This i say from the caste point of view not from the spiritual point of view as you have explained above.

(The cell phone bills that we pay late, our account is reinstated. The class that we discontinue in our university, we again will be reinstated. And I can go on and on about reinstatements.)

cell phone bills have never hurt me and the class that i left in the universtiy has never told me that i am of a lower order.Because both of them are my doing and my decisions.The caste that i am born into is not my decision and its the will of god.so both are uncomparable.

(Who are you? Answer me from a point of a human.)

I am a human being just like you.that is the answer to the question.just like anybody.I need not be treated as a special kind with not so much intelligence.About latent tendencies god and godly men will know.....

now i ask you a question...

You asked me who i am.I am a human like you and a hindu at that. Why is it that when i go to the Raghavendra temple at mantralayam I am made to sit in a separate room to be served my meals and why is it that all the brahmins are put in a separate enclousure?

Why as a human i cannot be allowed to perform pooja at thirumala when a brahmin because of his caste is allowed to touch the idols feet?.

Why should not a learned and pure sudhra who performs all the religious rites and is well versed in the vedas not allowed to head the sringeri mutt as a shankaracharya?. After all Shiva himself took on the avatar of a chandala to teach a spiritual lesson to Adi shankaracharya ?.

I sometimes wonder why the BJP dosent talk about these things at all.

Why is sanskrit a dead language today?.

The answer is because the higher classes called it a priviledge language and took it away from the masses.

It slowly died its natural death.

Untill now what ever was said about these things have been accepted but it wont be so in future.All people are now educated and know that something is wrong.They will ask questions like those above and one has to be ready to answer them.

I think that what I said about a person not reading a scripture is wrong and i admit it.

(then why are we following Science books to get our Research done? Why are we following Business books to learn that subject? It is mere theory)

I am at loss of words to tell you about this above unfair comparision sir.Science is a observation of facts.Not spirituality which is an unearthly expirience.Also in a certain cercumstances in a certain conditions no matter how many times you do an expiriment the results are the same.

for spirituality to reach such a stage requires a lot of sadhana.and results will vary.

(Scriptures have rules. One of the many millions being follow the classes.)

I think that the beauty of spirituality is that there are no hard and fast rules.There are many realised souls in the west who do not follow the class system and there are innumerable examples of SAINTS IN INDIA who actually broke rules and regulations

---to a large extent i can confidently say that those who broke the shackels of caste creed and religion and narrow scriptures are the ones who finally saw God and expirienced him in themselves.There is no rule in this path except those belonging to the purity of heart.

(You listen to a radio, saying 5 km down the line, there is a fire in a factory building and that, that particular road is blocked)

I dont think that this example fits the bill sir.Both are different things.A radio signal is something that is fresh and a book that has been written centuries before could have been manupulated.BOTH are different so cannot be compared.

(How do you define "worldly" and "outside" in terms of spirituality?)

anything that hinders one from gaining spiritual enlightment is worldly.That which one has to discard to reach higher planes is worldly.that is how i try to differentiate.

even though i agree with you about the nature of this world there are many things of this world like money,high caste, power, strength, greater intllect, intelligence and ego all of such things are maya and they should be discarded to reach God.

(I would like to ask you Ravi garu, what is so bad about a ritual or a tradition? Both of them are both bad and good, based on how we interpret.)

there are rituals like dont eat velliulli ,dont touch a sudra and numerous examples like this in our scriptures ...

I m not the one who is against it.Bhudda himself was against them.so who am I.

In the Bible there is a story about christ.

The jews just like our brahmins used to wash themselves many times a day and they would really believe that such ritual washing will take them closer to GOD.

Jesus saw them and said ' what is the use of washing a vessel from the outside when the inside is full of mud.OH MAN try to wash the vessel from the inside.you wash the outside of your body while your heart is full of all kinds of perversions'.

In the end it is all that matters.Not some time honoured tradition right?.

what we try to do is find some meaning from the rituals that have been set up by our peers.
apart from the above i have nothing against traditions and rituals.

 

(If you are so against with classes, then religion itself is a class to realize spirituality. Why muslims? Why christians? Why Hindus? Why )

YES RELIGION is itself a class but as we see in the past all the great saints or the most prominent ones were those who left religion and found GOD.In the end we have to get over such things done you think?.
for God is above all religions.The saints show the path and latter men create religions around them.One classic example is Christianity.
They made a religion out of JESUS Christ.

(Really, why men and women? Why not a person, with same body parts, same hieght, everything same?)

That is what i have been telling all the time.The differences are all there but in this world only.These outer aspects should not be taken into consideration for spiritual purposes and definitely not to support the class system.

just because of these outer aspects like colour of the body and the difference in height we cannnot support the class system to reach GOD.It is important for us to remember that these are worldly things and need to left off.

My point with the sacred thread was not to tell people to discard it but to tell them that it is really not required to reach GOD.So many saints are there who are examples of this aspect.

I
(Through intellect, we achieve spirituality. Tell me, how do you achieve spirituality? OR maybe I should ask, define Intellect!! For me through, intellect)

Through intellect we try to dissect.(THARKAMU).

WE try to complain and argue like we are doing now.IT is tarkam and it never helped anyone reach GOD.WE have to leave it and to leave it we have work on it.

I think that if I had seen Sai Baba with so much anger I would have reacted just like you.Or any sane person.I would think why would a saint get angry.Those who came to Sai baba did so with his grace only I accept that.he had mysterious ways.But for my intellect it would take me on the wrong path.It would make me disbelieve him.
In sai leelamrutam Master garu actually quoted Krishnamurti that since we are of lower order the choice of our guru will be faulty.

that is the power of intellect which makes one read books and think that we know something.WE have to use the intellect to decide on things about caste and creed because they are worldly things as I have put out before.

you may say that similarly the many ways of a Guru are above our intellect but it dosent hold water.Because when different rules are applied to different sects of people no matter how we try to tell them off it basically assumes that we are different from each other.
which is not true at all.

SHIRIDI SAI BABA NEVER DID THAT.

(Although I am keen to know from you, you keep repeating, wordly things, and spiritual things, can you please differentiate? )

The world is full of worldly things.The body of yours.. the parents you have.. the kids you have .... the friends .... the eneimies and all that you try to associate yourself with in this world is what i meant by worldly.

and all that you strive for with your intellect....Position,power,gold,money,appreciation and other things that gratify your ego.all these things are worldly.

everything that denies your ego and you should renounce is spiritual.Your concept of the whole world being full of God holds water for a realised soul not for a worldy person who is in samsara.

For he or she will continously see the differences like you have already told me.Class ,colour creed religion etc.

I didnt understand your example of the programmer and analyst.

What I do know is that all the people who were before SRI GURUDU in that story of SRI GURU CHARITRA were chandalas.

I mean all the brahmin deciples of his.

But only one guy is picked based on his caste and told that you sinned and so you are now a chandala etc.which i guess is a wrong concept.

The earlier examples of Srimad Bhagavatam tell us that the gunas are there in prominence so the person himself based on his gunas will choose his caste.HERE in the Guru charitra the caste is imposed already by birth.

Which is in turn imposed on him because of some sin which he did in his previous birth.

That reeks of injustice and it is derogatory.It is very wrong.It presoposes that some poeple did good and so are in higher order and that all people are not equal and same.

BECAUSE who told us these things.someone wrote them for us and others followed right?.

surprisingly a book tells us all this.In the earlier times dieseases were explained off like this with the karma sutra.

Later on when the divisions of classes became prominant people began to explain the castes with the help of bad karma and good karma.This i feel is the height of ignorance.

The chandalas have not sinned in their previous lives and they are same as you are in intellect and other things.They can realise God just like you in this birth only.We have to agree on this.

It is surprising for me that the concept of reinstatement is so so important and does not look frivilous to you.

It is perhaps for this reason that after the maha samadhi of sai baba some brahmin intrests tried to create stories that he was born in patri to a brahmin couple and i remember reading such a story once.

It was Sai master-- OUR MASTER garu who wrote that it is a fictitious story.

with love

Kiran(ravifrom)

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2007, 07:36:51 PM »
Dear Sai Bandhus,

Let us share our views here from our hearts.

Kirangaru, first of all welcome to our Sai Master Forum. We are very glad to know that you were there when Mastergari book was released. Please convey our respects to Sri Thomas Reddygaru if you are living in the same place.

Kirangaru, you have raised two questions:

Quote:
I felt that the main reason why our beloved sai has asked his devotees to read it is because we CAN know the importance of a Guru in our spiritual life.
 

Quote:

Apart from that aspect all the other things in Sri Guru charitra are very controversial and are very very pro braminic.I found many lines that were a little hurting and I couldnt understand the importance of this book.


You have the question and you also have the answer.

Let us put these questions for clarity?

1. Who asked us to read ?Sri Guru Charitra?

Our Baba asked us to read and our Mastergaru asked us to follow what Baba preached.

What is our duty? Please read the following leela of Baba.

Someone brought an aged goat to the mosque. Bade Baba was at that time present there. Baba who had special regard for Bade Baba ordered him to kill the goat with one stroke of the knife. ( Whenever Bade Baba went to other places, Baba used to accompany him up to 100 footsteps and then return to the mosque.) Such a close associate of Baba declined to kill the goat when asked by Baba. Then Baba called Shama and told him to kill the goat. Shama went to the wada to bring a knife, but delayed much in coming back. Thereupon, Baba ordered Kaka Saheb Dixit to kill the goat. Dixit was an orthodox Brahmin. In spite of this he took a knife, lifted and got ready to kill the goat. Immediately Baba asked him to stop and told him, "What a merciless Brahmin you are ! You are getting ready to kill the goat!" Hearing this Dixit kept aside the knife and told Baba, "Your nectar-like words are like law to us. Those words are treated as the orders of God. We always remember you. We always pray to your form. Day and night we obey your orders. We do not go into its merits when once you give an order. It is our duty to follow your orders to the last word. This is our Dharma. For your sake, we are prepared to sacrifice everything, including this body and wealth."

Why Baba tested Dixit? How Dixit responded to Baba's instructions? What Baba taught Dixit?

We dont see any reason why we should think about man made castes and its effects on the society? Everyone agrees that caste system is a mistake. Everyone agrees that BRAHMINISM is different from the CASTE OF BRAHMIN.

Is there any religion or caste or any other divisions among Sai Bandhus. Conclusions are already given by Baba.

After that, Baba and Mastergaru asked us to do paarayana of "Sri Guru Charitra". Still we have doubts and concerns about what our Baba asked us to do. We do get doubts when we do anything. But keeping complete faith in Baba if we do paarayana, Baba can answer all the questions.

What Anantgaru mentioned is absolutely true. Try again. This time ask Baba to clarify your doubts. Baba definitely helps you. Unfortunately we discussed in a different way as this topic is started with conclusions. When the conclusions are already given, is there any need for answers/discussion? Naturally it ends up with arguments. No win situation.

We should have discussed the same under the topic ?Dominance of Brahmins in our country? or "Discrimination of few categories of people in Temples" or ?Dominance of Men over women? .

What Baba has taught us?
Respect all religions, Respect all living beings.

2.Why Baba asked us to do read ?Sri Guru Charitra??

?Sri Guru Charitra? is a sacred book advised by our Baba and Mastergaru to read and learn how to do Guru seva.

One more last question.

Why Baba made Kushabhav Thakre to read it 108 times instead of just one time.

Because we human beings with the materialistic lives can never get rid of our ego?s or sins or sinful thinking in a day or two or with one paarayana or two. All of us want short cuts. We want the fastest results possible. We actually want God himself appear infront of us and clarify our doubts. Our satsang members say even if God comes, we may ask him out of lack of faith ?first prove yourself that you are God?.

Everything depends on how much faith we have in what Mahatmas say. We can blame only ourselves for this lack of faith. It?s our intellect that makes us to think in various ways.

We always respect and will ask Baba what Shama asked Baba ?Please give me visawasam?. Baba replied for that ?Just for that only I came here?.

Every time we read, we get the Bhavam what Baba wants us to get. What is the intention of Baba? Baba asked us to look at the seva disciples did to their Gurus, learn how shraddha and patience are powerful in spiritual quest, learn about sthala mahatyam, learn about the Guru?s daya towards his disciples.

Many of our satsang members mentioned that each paarayana of the same book teaches us different meaning. The meaning we have right now that something is wrong may prove correct after few experiences in our lives. Who gives these experiences? How we change our thinking? Till that time, can we come to conclusions especially about something which Mahatmas have suggested? Mastergaru mentioned "Jeevithame oka sadhana kaavali". Our life's experiences only teaches us many valuable lessons which many years of study of sastras can not do.

Especially Baba's of teaching is so sweet. Simplest things teach us wonderful lessons.

We share one of our recent experience. It may help us....

Recently,we went to one of Sai devotees home for satsang. After satsang, we sat there infront of Baba and discussed about spiritual matters. One devotee said "I watch spiritual discourses on TV and there are many great things that touches us". While she was saying, I interrupted (which is very odd of me) and told the devotee that "they look like more of marketing speeches and they dont teach/help us anything for a long time. they are more of inspirational rather than spiritual." I made this statement with an intention that they are not from our Guru and naturally we may get diverted by these sayings. But I felt embarrassed for my statement immediately.

How can I come to conclusion?

Who gave the discourse?
What he said?
What message the devotee got?
Without knowing anything, I came to conclusion and mentioned in front of Baba and all. I felt really embarrassed and sorry.

The devotee started explaining which taught me a big lesson. The devotee explained that Man/Woman has to develop a personal divine relationship with God/Guru and also quoted an example of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa 's intense divine relationship with Amma and when he reaches a blissful state in his dhyanam there is no difference between him and Goddess. There appears only one soul. The devotee mentioned that Baba forwards the messages through some speech/some means and she could understand the message. The devotee's faith in that and taking exact bhavam what Baba wants is possible for the devotee. I may not get the same bhavam but the devotee got the right message. It was like a slap on my face. I learnt a very fruitful lesson in my life. I should have waited till the devotee completed her explanation. Thanks to Baba and the devotee.

Continuing the current topic....Many of us did paarayana of Sri Guru Charitra and blessed with blissful experiences. Blessings came just because we did paarayana only with a view to know how we can do Guru seva. We never could imagine that it is pro- Brahmin or against any castes or divisions. Being Baba?s devotees, we have erased these discriminations since the day we came to Baba?s fold.

Baba also clearly mentioned that there is no need for sastra shatkam. If at all we choose to get the clarifications, as Mastergaru mentioned let us ask Baba about it. Baba will definitely help us.

Just extension of thoughts, in the current scenario we cannot go to each and every political leaders (who are exploiting the caste system/reservation system) and explain them to close the system. We can not go to each and every temple and explain to the pandits/management to change their rules.

Modern India with encouraging literacy is realizing the bad effects of each and every social evil. We are only 60 years of post independent country. Each year brings positive changes if we all of us do regular paarayanas and pray Baba sincerely.

Regarding your other question about

?It was also very restricting and imposing a lot of limits on how a woman should behave.?

Sudhakargaru clarified that Mastergaru has already mentioned the clarification for our doubts.

Quote:
Regarding pathivratha aspects etc., Master has mentioned in Telugu Gurucharithra under the title "Sree GuruCharithra lo sthree nindha?" There he mentions that these are not for those who lead normal life but only for those who decided to make moksha as center of their life. The same rules are there for sanyaasis also. As Master maintains referring Gita that those who are aiming moksha are only very few in Dwapara yuga itself. So these rules are not applicable to normal house holders.


Honestly speaking we have learnt many unknown things from this discussion as we have never read any sastras. This thread has definitely Mastergari blessings. Thank you very much to all of you.

We are sure Baba and Mastergaru gives us better clarifications for the current sensitive topic through some means which we all of us agree at some point of time.

We pray Baba, Mastergaru and all of you for apologies if we have written anything wrong here.

Jai Sai Master.
(saiuttampallavi)
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Sadguru Seva is the most precious Gift God gave to Mankind.
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Sadguru Seva is the most precious Gift God gave to Mankind.

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2007, 07:37:26 PM »
JAI SAI MASTER

Sai Uttam Pallavi garu,

Thank you for you kind explanation.I will do the parayana of Sri Guru Charitra based on your suggesstion.

I think long time ago when I was a novice I first had a copy given to me on a thursday .I read it at once and came to those conclusions.

I do remember being disappointed but i think I should do parayan a number of times.I agree with you that all this is unnecessary discussion which our mind creates.Exactly like what you told that devotee in the example you gave.
may be someone somewhere learnt something from their parayan and i didnt even think from that angle.Since i had not learnt anything i came to the conclusions.
May be its true that this discussion started with my conclusions and
I am sorry for that.I had read almost all the books of Mastergaru especially those that relate to saints.

so much so that i used to miss those books when i came to this country but the good thing is that i found them in the net.I read them there when ever possible.

All the other books I loved reading them again and again.

This was the only book that stood apart and I thought it was a little different.I myself thought about it and came to those conclusions.

I asked myself what is that i learnt from Guru Charitra and the answer was that it teaches us the importance of a Guru in our spiritual lives.

I then thought we can know that fact anyway from sai leelamrutam and in fact it s so wonderful book so why read this ancient scripture etc.

I apologise to you for presenting them without personally discussing them with anyone.

I never read the srimadbhagvata and would like to read it now considering the few verses that I have read here posted by anant garu.

I remember getting some doubts in the book sai leelamrutam but those doubts went away after a few readings.
I am really sorry for simply barging in and hurting you like this.
I will certainly read sri Guru Charitra again.

with regards

Kiran.(ravifrom)

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2007, 07:38:47 PM »
jai sai master!!!

Thankyou to Babugaru and to all sai bandhu's for ur valuable explanations. This thread has given a lot of thinking on spiritual books.

JAI SAI MASTER!!!

VAMSHI PRATHIVADI

Sri Sachitananda Sadguru Sai Nath Maharaj Ki Jai!!!
Sri Sachitananda Sadguru Alivelu Mangamma Sahitha Bharadwaj Maharaj Ki Jai!!!
Sri Sachitananda Sadguru Sri Rama Chandra Chaithanya Swamiji Ki Jai!!!
Sri Sachitananda Sadguru Sai Nath Maharaj Ki Jai!!!
Sri Sachitananda Sadguru Alivelu Manga Sahitha Bharadwaj Maharaj Ki Jai!!!
Sri Sachitananda Sadguru Sri Rama Chandra Chaithanya Swamy Maharaj Ki Jai!!!

ravifrom_old

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Re: please explain to me on sri Guru charitra....
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2007, 07:39:17 PM »
Jai Shiridi Sai ...Jai Sai Master!.

Dear Sai Uttam Pallavi garu,

As I have promised I have started on the parayana.These are some of the passages in the book that are offending and which tell us that caste is based on the birth of a human being.

These are the basis of all my questions and doubts.

CHAPTER 27

Shri Guru gave a stick to a disciple and asked him to draw seven parallel lines. On doing this shri Guru asked the Harijan to cross a line. The Harijan crossed the first line and Shri Guru asked him who he was. He said he was a Kirat. On crossing the second line, he had more knowledge. On crossing the third he said he was a gangasut i.e. a boatman. On crossing the fourth he became a Shudra. On crossing the fifth he became Somdatta Vaishya. On crossing the sixth he was a Kshatriya named godavary. On crossing the seventh line, he said, `I am a Brahmin. I know Vedas, Shastras, Vyakran and my name is Adhyapak (




(It assumes that all the previous births of that person are lower to that of a brahmin and that he reached the highest stage in the last line.This notion is false and baseless.It is actually misleading.

I say that if the harijan is as good as the brahmin in the last line.With the knowledge of vedas which are denied to him by birth.ALL THE classes are same and equal before God.Even with out the knowledge of the vedas I as a human being am equal and same to GOD.I am equally precious to him.I am his son just like anybody is.This is the basis of all religions which have been manipulated over time by selfish intrests.)

CHAPTER 27

The Harijan Brahmin said to Shri Guru, 'I was a Brahmin, then how was I degenerated? What sins had I committed? Kindly enlighten me.'

(I believe that no harijan has committed any sin.It again is a false notion that was spread to implant a guilt in the hearts of lower class men.It is offending and derogatory.There are so many sants and saints among harijans who are shouting at the top of their voices that they have managed to liberate themselves with out crossing those seven lines in the above story.Ravidasu santh is a good example so is the case with kabir.)

now the question of what causes a lower birth.just look at how pro brahmanic these verses are.everything is defined from the point of a brahmin.

CHAPTER 28

Shri Guru said, `I will tell you the account of your past life. One gets birth as per one's good or bad actions. If Shudra enjoys with a Brahmin woman he becomes a chandal. Brahmins and persons of other castes are degenerated if they lead a faulty life. --takes Shudra's food,---tells vedas to shudras sells horses, enjoys with Shudra women, sets fire to the forest, separates a cow from its calves, rides on an ox, ---censures Hari and Har ----One who learns mantras from shudras---also gets birth in a chandal family becomes a chandal.

(IT goes with out saying that i disagree with all the above and i will say again that there is no such thing as a pois brahmin caste just as there is no caste like sudhra-- anyone with the help of a great master can reach God and the master need not be a brahmin)

If a Shudra enjoys with a Brahmin woman, both will become worms.

Shri Guru told the Harijan, `You were a Brahmin but you disregarded your parents and therefore, you have become a chandal. You bathe at the sangam for a month and your sins will be wiped off'.

Shri Guru smiled and said, `You are born in a low caste. How can you be a Brahmin without change of the present day?28

(if the above comments are not sinful by themselves and if they dont suggest that one becomes a chandal by birth I dont know what else is.In fact they are verily against the bhagavatam verses and they go against the sprit of all the nobel thoughts that we have received from great sages of our religion.That caste is really immaterial and it has no base before God)


Now the question of women and their role according to Guru Charitra.

CHAPTER 31

She gets up before her husband, cleans the courtyard and sprinkles it with water. After bath she worships her husband and takes his teerth(Toe dipped water.). She dresses and wears ornaments when her husband is at home. When he goes out, she does not have a make up Even if the husband speaks harshly to her, she does not retort. She does not abuse him. When he comes home she greets him and asks him what he wants. A devoted wife, when she goes out, does not look at other persons and returns home soon.31

Every devoted wife dines after her husband has dined. She respects the guests, and the elders and greets her husband, when he comes from outside. She does not disobey her husband. She worships her husband thinking him to be Shri Shankar. She serves him in the night and goes to sleep after her husband has slept.

She not observe any vrat or fast or does not give any thing in charity without the permission of her husband. If there is some function, fair or ceremony in the town, she does not go without the husband's instructions. If the husband is happy, she is not dejected and if he is in grief, she will not come joyful. If she is in monthly course, she does not come in front of her husband and does not hear the Vedas. After bath on the fourth day, she gives company to her husband and in his absence she only sees the Sun. She applies halad-kunkum-kajal and wears the mangalsutra round her neck, bangles on her wrists for the long life of her husband. She does not make friendship with the washerwomen, concubines, atheists and those who cajole their husbands


A woman retorting angrily to her husband becomes a dog, fox or dumb or pauper in seven lives. Even if the husband is weak, he should not be disregarded. She should not speak loudly or laugh in presence of the elders.31


(SO many restrictions and so many ways to let her be.To chain and to make women feel guilty of any small mistake on their part.Well since Mastar garu has said that they are not for normal women we can move on to the next line)

(I think these verses below show how the evil practice of sati was spread and allowed to continue.)

A husband is the soul of his wife. She is regarded auspicious as long as her husband is alive. After the husband's death, she is regarded inauspicious. While going to some place, if a widow is seen, it is considered inauspicious except to her own son.31

(There is a book written during the time after the vedas which actually said that women whose husbands die should be allowed to re-marry.That aspect has been convieniently forgotton here.It was that book that Raja Ram Mohan Roy had used to argue his case for the abolishment of this very evil and disturbing practice and propose remarriages of women.I will try to find the name of that book and the verses that ask women to remarry)


If the wife observes, 'Sati' i.e. she burns herself with the dead body of her husband, she attains all glory. She liberates the persons of 42 generations(21 of the husband and 21 paternal). If the husband is sinful, still she takes him to heaven Yama's servants also are afraid of a 'Sati'. The virtue of going 'sati' is immense. On the contrary if a woman is adulterous, she sends her 42 generations to the hell.


Those who have a Sati in their homes, are really fortunate. They attain four valours(Purusharthas). Their acts are virtuous. That home is like a forest, which is without a Sati. 31


If the husband dies in the presence of the wife, then should observe `Sati'. But if she is pregnant, if she has a child which is being fed on her breast or if the husband dies at a far off place, then she should not observe `Sati'. She should live as a widow.

She should shave off the hair on the head, else the husband goes to hell. She should bathe daily and should have only one meal every day. She should observe `Chandrayan' i.e. take one morsel of food on the first day of the bright (shuddha) fortnight, increase one morsel daily and take 15 morsels on the Poornima.

In the dark fortnight (Krishna or Vad) she should go on decreasing one morsel daily and take only one morsel of food on the Amavasya (new moon day). She should not: take milk, should not sleep on the bedstead, should not take mangal bath, nor take `pan'. If she has no son, she should do `tiltarpan', worship Vishnu daily and act as per the wishes of her dead husband. She should wear white clothes.

(I hope that you understand my point of view in the end.I refuse to believe all these above statements no just based on my intellect or reasonaing but also because i am absolutely sure they are pointless and are of no use to anyone...a women is free to choose her spiritual path that will yeild her fruits and is just as a man is.she has the same rights and same priviledges.she can reach God even after renouncing her husband just as many men have renounced their wives to take up sanyas and have become saints. Meera bhai is one example.There are many like her.)

with regards

kiran.