Author Topic: Questions & Facts about Energy  (Read 11299 times)

Srusti.M

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Questions & Facts about Energy
« on: June 05, 2009, 12:51:57 AM »
my questions are:

I came to know that the sun, gravity, inertia, friction, and fire etc.. are all different forms of energy.  I know energy is not matter, and matter is not energy. And i learned that energy can not be created or destroyed. Then how does energy form?? and what is energy.

I did a project on natural resources. The sources of energy can be classified into two groups.1) renewable resources are resources that we can use again and again in a short period of time. 2) Non-renewable resources are resources that we can't use again and again in a short period of time. Once they're gone, they're gone. It takes them a long time to form again.

So who helped form this energy first? where does it form? where was it found first? why does it form? when does it form? It's so mysterious.

In the cave man days they used to use igneous rocks to ignite fire. In that case is the fire inside the rock? Then why aren't the rocks hot? Some people say energy is in everything. Is that true?? Humans and animals and plants have energy. I know that because they somehow show it. For ex we use and show energy by doing things and by growing, that counts for animals and plants too. But does everything have energy in it, some things exhibit energy and somethings don't. I'm very much flummoxed about this.

Gravity is an energy in the earth which pulls down everything. when some body asks you how much you weigh we are actually asking you to ' How much gravity is pulling on you.'  And different planets have different gravities depending on their mass.Because of this our weight may vary on different planets, and it is very imp also. So our weight is not constant just like our forms, so what exactly weight means.
"We should not bother about a wish that Baba did not fulfill because we should believe that he did it for our own good. We need strong faith in Baba to believe that he does things for our own good."

Dwarakanath

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Re: Questions & Facts about Energy
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2009, 04:34:40 AM »
Jai Sai Master!

Dearest srusti,

Two lil things..

1. Matter is energy and energy is matter. This is the famous E = m*c*c equation by Einstein. It proposes that matter is nothing but energy.

2. There are two things, 1. matter, 2. forces. For example gravity is a force. Gravity is not energy, it is a result, an effect of energy. Infact, no one really knows what gravity is!! It is explained to a lot of extent by Einstein. But still, it remains one of those things that scientists so far cant say what it actually is, or where it comes from. We only know that 'gravity' 'comes' from mass (matter). Anything with mass can exert gravity. Just like Energy.

To answer the question of energy, first we need to understand that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Which means two things. One is that if we destroy one 'form' of energy, it goes into another. For example, friction changes into heat.. rub your hands and you generate heat. Where does that come from? From friction. Where did friction come from? You rubbing the hands together. Where did the energy to rub your hands come from? From your muscles. Where did it come from, from sugars in your blood. Where did they come from? From eating, Where did that come from? From plants and animals.. ...etc.

You see? Energy just changes forms, but the total energy present in the entire universe is always the same. This is called ' law of conservation of energy '.

The other thing is, to 'create' energy means to create it out of nothing. How can something come out of nothing?? No one knows. It is called 'singularity' in science. No one knows why or how the energy in this universe came about. Let alone where from.

Energy is what there is. All matter, even space, is energy.

There are some things you can do...
1. study the difference between force and energy.
2. study what 'energy' is.
3. think of where all the energy came from into this universe. Here there are two options.
    a - it was always there. which means that the universe was always there.
    b - it came from nothing. How can that be? Think.

Hope im not confusing you..

Jai Sai Master!!

sai_prince

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Re: Questions & Facts about Energy
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2009, 04:58:18 PM »
Dear Srusti,

I think you are newly introduced to this in your science classes... Rather than explaining the details, I think I would rather recommend you to enhance your understanding in the topic(s).

Atleast based on your post I think (although I am not sure which grade you are in) you need to understand the meaning and definition of following terms: Force, Pressure, Work and Energy.

One good way to think/understand any physics term would be think of four things:
What are the units of that term,
From units how does the definition fit in,
Is the quantity scalar or vector,
What are the limits of the term.. (for eg, you will read in a definition, something like.... for a given system... in ideal conditions...etc, so what is given, what is ideal for that definition)

Along with this try to read up on definitions of : matter and space

I think an understanding of this is important to deligently understand the questions in your topic....Also initially learn what is given in your textbook and than google search on the topic.... :-)

Jai sai master

Asterias

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Re: Questions & Facts about Energy
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2009, 07:10:09 PM »
Jai Sai Master !

Vector and Scalar !! Sai_prince garu, I dont think that those things are important to know forces, energy etc !

As for matter and space .. well is there any definition for them ???


Dear Srusti, have you started doing what Dwaraka annayya asked you to do ?

Jai Sai Master !

sai_prince

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Re: Questions & Facts about Energy
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2009, 08:31:19 PM »

Vector and Scalar !! Sai_prince garu, I dont think that those things are important to know forces, energy etc !

As for matter and space .. well is there any definition for them ???


Definitely!!! Additivity of forces and... also when work is said to be done.... to know this the basics vector and scalar notations are definitely important.....

Of course there are physics definitions of matter and space.... and also limits to it..... otherwise how does one say 3 states (or 4 states) of matter and limit integrals of space... I dont know how far/stage the discussion need to go. So I am not going into details. But the fundamental understanding I think comes by high school.

Asterias

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Re: Questions & Facts about Energy
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2009, 10:20:01 PM »
Jai Sai Master !

I am talking about forces and energy in principle, if we go deep down, then we even need to know curl and divergence, without which we cant talk about fields :)

Anyways I was trying to point you towards the topic "Einstein's Theory" (search for it in this forum) for a deeper understanding of what space and time are.

However, I am going off topic. Scalar and Vector topics are taught in India in when vectors are taught, which is somewhere around 11th class.

Enough of my rant though!

Dear Srusti, went through your ppst once again and wanted to add some things ..

What you have asked are questions that have intrigued people for many decades and still we have not been able to know the exact "answer".

Quote
So who helped form this energy first? where does it form? where was it found first? why does it form? when does it form? It's so mysterious.

As Babugaru told, its a singularity. What textbooks usually talk about is that the energy from teh sun in form of light (radiation) got converted through a long process into energy that we get from fuels. Have you been introduced to this concept ?

Jai Sai Master !

sai_prince

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Re: Questions & Facts about Energy
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2009, 12:54:52 AM »
I am talking about forces and energy in principle, if we go deep down, then we even need to know curl and divergence, without which we cant talk about fields :)

Anyways I was trying to point you towards the topic "Einstein's Theory" (search for it in this forum) for a deeper understanding of what space and time are.


Dont mean to argue, but quiet frankly that thread, I followed it, it was interesting, but it was a bunch of arguement, swaying away from the point several times, very ill-defined statements... and truly i didnot see any take home message, neither did it help to conclude or lead to a thought process. Ofcourse my personal opinion.

Again, I had my education from India and vectors and scalars came in 8th class... however, I am not sure if that is the point .... Further more I agree with you.... this is kids forum, and "energy" is a comlicated thing to discuss here.... in fact when I saw the questions, I was confused if I have to think in classical physics or quantum mechanics.... or if its a "Kids" topic to begin with. 

Dwarakanath

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Re: Questions & Facts about Energy
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2009, 02:38:32 AM »
Jai Sai Master!

Sai Princegaru,

Srusti is 10 yrs old now (or 11), i think. So, its pretty basic stuff to begin with. (with the great questions she asks, which leads into BIG understanding for her).

Regarding that thread, I feel the same. It didnt conclude. It veered off. I would love to discuss it properly, as I want to check my own understanding and logic. That is the point of it, i think. Are you interested in thinking about that? I got out of mood with that thread. It wasnt going anywhere. But I did learn (and thought) about a lot of stuff from it. If you are interested, I would love to discuss it afresh. I really want to understand certain things about that.

Shall we start a friendly discssion regarding such things??

Jai Sai Master!

sai_prince

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Re: Questions & Facts about Energy
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2009, 03:30:03 AM »
Dwarakanath garu,

Surely I can try.
Although I have some of the related background; But I am definitely not the knowledgeable person in this field. especially when I saw the posts of Swarup garu, my understanding and input cannot match...
Atleast based on my recent personal conversation with Swarup garu he said, he is busy with his job stress being unhandleable and thinking of possible changes in job... and thought he cannot contribute to the forum and wanted to take a break. But said he will be back latter..... In the mean time, may be I can learn from discussing with you and others.

Thanks for asking... looking forward to learn more...

Jai sai master

Srusti.M

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Re: Questions & Facts about Energy
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2009, 07:05:58 AM »
Dwaraka Annaya,

Quote
I know energy is not matter, and matter is not energy.

I wrote this statement in the first message.  I misunderstood when my teacher said.... " If something isn't Matter it's Energy and if something isn't Energy it's Matter." Now I understood we can change Matter into Energy and Energy into Matter. Am I right??

Quote
This is the famous E = m*c*c equation by Einstein

I know he was the most famous Scientist of this century.no body beat him yet. I want to know the advantages of this theory.

Quote
Anything with mass can exert gravity. Just like Energy. ..

please explain this a little, because when we look into the word 'exert'  I'm getting two different meanings out of it.

Quote
For example, friction changes into heat.. rub your hands and you generate heat. Where does that come from? From friction. Where did friction come from? You rubbing the hands together. Where did the energy to rub your hands come from? From your muscles. Where did it come from, from sugars in your blood. Where did they come from? From eating, Where did that come from? From plants and animals.. ...etc.

I would like to complete this statement.

rub your hands and you generate heat. Where does that come from? From friction. Where did friction come from? You rubbing the hands together. Where did the energy to rub your hands come from? From your muscles. Where did it come from, from sugars in your blood. Where did they come from? From eating, Where did that come from? From plants and animals.. ...where did carnivorous animals get their food? From herbivorous. Where did herbivorous get their food? From plants. Where did plants get the energy to make their food? The Sun. How did the Sun emit it's energy?? From some chemical reactions of Hydrogen and some other gases.

Yes Asterias Annaya we have been introduced to this concept before. We learned about Natural Resources and Fossil Fuels in 3rd Grade.

Quote
There are some things you can do...
1. study the difference between force and energy.
2. study what 'energy' is.
3. think of where all the energy came from into this universe. Here there are two options.
    a - it was always there. which means that the universe was always there.
    b - it came from nothing. How can that be? Think.

Here are the answers to your questions.
The difference between force and energy is, that force is, a push or pull . Energy is ability to do things. Energy can make things move. Both force and energy are almost identical. we can transform energy into force.

Energy is in everything, even if somethings exhibit it and some dont.

All the energy in this universe came from SOMETHING. I'm going with option A because how can something come out from nothing?  Something always come from something? duh......:)

If we have a plant, it should come from a seed or something like(leaves, stems, spore....etc) How can we say that plant come from nothing. we need something to make anything. Anything just cant pop out  on its own. And I think that applies for the Universe to. Before the creation of Universe there could have been something or some energy which created the energy that is here now. 
 
"We should not bother about a wish that Baba did not fulfill because we should believe that he did it for our own good. We need strong faith in Baba to believe that he does things for our own good."

Asterias

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Re: Questions & Facts about Energy
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2009, 12:04:47 PM »
Jai Sai Master !

The more I think on this topic, the more parallels I see ! And I realize that I have never given these thing much thought other than as formulae for getting marks in exam :). Thank you Srusti for opening me to this discussion.

I came across this http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~vawter/PhysicsNet/Topics/Work/WorkForceEnergy.html

I will mention a few points from it here :

* Force is the agent of change, and Work is a measure of the change.

* Work is related to the distance a force moves an object and not the time it takes to move the object.
* A Force does no work unless the system is free to move "along the direction" of the Force applied. When a Force and the object's displacement are perpendicular, the work done by the force is zero.[ This the concept of scalar and vector that Sai_prince garu was talking about. If you dont understand it, just let it be :) ]

* The Energy transferred into a system by the action of a Force is the Work done on the System.

* If system A does work then energy flows out of the system A. If an another system does work on system A then energy flows into the system A from the other system.

* Mass and Energy have much in common. Einstein's famous equation E = mc2 shows that mass is itself a form of "stored" energy.

---x---


Jai Sai Master !



Srusti.M

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Re: Swarup Uncle's opinions
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2009, 01:30:38 AM »
All Annayas and Uncles,

I am here posting Swarup Uncle's opinions about this thread. Uncle asked me do this favor for him. I'm enclosing his message below.


Swarup Uncle wrote:

First, thanks to srusti for agreeing to post my messages.

I apologize for not being active on this forum, as I had other obligations sucking up a major portion of my time. So I thought morally I cannot continue as an active member.


@ Dwarakanath garu, I like your idea to start new thread on the space and time, but as I said may be I cannot contribute atleast for next 6-8 months. I decide to significantly change my current research arena and career so I need to invest a lot of time learning new things . However I will be watching the forum and I guess I can access only kids section.. and also may be that is the place I love to contribute the most on this forum.

Now coming to Srusti?s questions:

First very good questions and great posts by dwarakanath garu and sai_prince garu. From the way you have written sai_prince garu, I think you have research background, as that is typically the way I would think a new term in research, but what you said I think needs a lot of elaboration.

Now Srusti, I am personally thrilled with your enthusiasm to learn about energy etc, but before going into the details I would like to tell you how you should start thinking about those things. I am sure as you go higher up you learn about energy ?dogmas, myths etc. But what I want you to think is say if you have to learn about a new physics term ?X?  what are the things you have to take into considerations.

You said ?force and energy are almost identical?.

This obviously is not the case. Is apple and apple pie almost identical? Definitely not right?! One is dependent on other but both are not similar right?!

So the real question you will have to think is: WHEN IS SOMETHING IS SIMILAR; AND WHEN IS SOMETHING DEPENDENT


This is the key question you should be asking for anything is science. This is something I should have learnt in my elementary school but unfortunately I learnt it in my PhD. Also this holds good for any new thing you want to learn.

Like follow this example srusti, and you will realize the importance better, Say we are trying to derive new things, we use two three different known parameters from there we use various equations and finally we end up with a science parameter, now how to see that parameter?

Similar in your question, say energy is a new science term for you,  how do you go about with it? You said heat is energy, also, so why did dwarakanath garu said, gravity is not energy but gravity (as a general term) is force??

In those cases of bias between any two terms, and that?s when, what sai_prince told, holds good. And that is, look at the units of each. (not just simple definitions, of course critical analysis of the definition also leads you there) But looking at units is more easier and atleast I follow this way in my regular practice.

And a golden rule is anything when the basic units are same are interchangeable or ?similar?. When one unit is derived from other it is ?dependent?.

That is precisely the reason why our maths teachers are very particular about units and not just the absolute number. But unfortunately when I was in elementary school say if I have a question to calculate speed of something, I calculate the number and put the units beside it, just because I just remember it. But that is the totally wrong way to do it, rather I should be able to derive the units of speed spontaneously.


Now, of course, I am not going to give you the answers, But rather I will ask you to do some homework for me.

Follow these three sentences:

Green apples and red apples are ?similar?,

Apples and oranges are different,

Apple and apple pie, latter is ?dependent? on former

 

Do you agree with these three sentences?..

 

Now homework is:

Take three words: force, energy, heat? learn their definitions?. Try checking up the units of each?.

You will soon learn three words: joules, calories and newtons?. Match up which word is the units for each term.

 

Which of these terms and units are like green apples and red apples (that is are ?similar?)?

Which of these terms : apple and apple pie?

 

We will see how we actually get/derive each units latter?. And that will clear up more?.

 

One more home work, and hope you will like it,  I want you to learn the units for volume? I am sure you know the units of volume of milk you buy, say in gallons or liters?

But what is liter?? Say if you have to build an instrument to measure 1 liter how would you do it? Thinks its your science project?. two clue I will give you is 1) think what is the formula to calculate the volume of cube, and 2) if  liter is ?dependent? on length or ?similar? to length?..

Once you do these two homeworks you will see the broader picture of how to think about these?

 

May be it is a difficult exercise in the beginning, But srusti, believe me, atleast to my understanding, this is the way you have to learn to think about new things in science?. I myself learnt this pretty late in my career?  may be if its still difficult, take your parents help in this regard?. Take as much time as possible, but get a good grasp at the logic?.

 

Don?t worry too much about details of energy, laws guiding them, we will get to it latter in this thread, or may be you will learn it yourself at higher level, but, first you have to understand the dimensions of individual parameter and how to critically analyze a parameter as you learn ?. Say tomorrow you will see new parameter ?X?,  I hope by the end of this thread you will learn how to look at new parameters (for example density) and self-inquire yourself???. That will help you better understand what it actually means?

 

Also, for example, say I derive a new parameter some ?binding constant X? in my research, I first check for, to derive the basic units of that parameter, and than cross check to understand what is the physical meaning of that parameter that is defined?.

 

I hope what I  said so far it helps?.

 

Regards to all forum members?.

Om sai ram

Swarup
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 01:32:34 AM by Srusti.M »
"We should not bother about a wish that Baba did not fulfill because we should believe that he did it for our own good. We need strong faith in Baba to believe that he does things for our own good."

vasu

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Re: Questions & Facts about Energy
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2009, 08:28:52 PM »
In the cave man days they used to use igneous rocks to ignite fire. In that case is the fire inside the rock? Then why aren't the rocks hot? Some people say energy is in everything. Is that true?? Humans and animals and plants have energy. I know that because they somehow show it. For ex we use and show energy by doing things and by growing, that counts for animals and plants too. But does everything have energy in it, some things exhibit energy and somethings don't. I'm very much flummoxed about this.

Jai Sai Master!
Sri Alimemlu Managamma Sahita Bharadwaja Maharaj ki Jai.

Dear Srushti.
Why are rocks not hot?: Because there is no *flow* of energy from the rock to you. You feel an object hot when there is a flow of energy from that object into you. Now why would any object transfer energy to me? If the object is agitated. Agitated means the electrons (the negatively charged particles in every atom of the universe) are in a higher state than usual that is they are little farther away from the nucleus containing the protons (positively charged).
Now you see the object doesn't like it :). So it wants the electrons come back to it's original state. So it will send some of it's energy out so the electrons can come back. So if you touch the object in that state you will be the recipient of that heat.
So this is also the reason any heated object will eventually become cool because it doesn't like to be hot. It wants to be in its natural state: Cool.

Jai Sai Master

Asterias

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Re: Questions & Facts about Energy
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2009, 09:06:55 PM »
Jai Sai Master !

Dear Srusti,

In the cave man days they used to use igneous rocks to ignite fire. In that case is the fire inside the rock? Then why aren't the rocks hot? Some people say energy is in everything. Is that true?? Humans and animals and plants have energy. I know that because they somehow show it. For ex we use and show energy by doing things and by growing, that counts for animals and plants too. But does everything have energy in it, some things exhibit energy and somethings don't. I'm very much flummoxed about this.

Regarding this:

Igneous rocks are used to ignite fire. That does not mean that those rocks contain fire. Fire is produced by the friction. Igneous rocks are the hardest (among all the other type of stones) and the small deformations that you see on the surface, when two such stone are rubbed produce friction. This friction energy initially just produces heat. However beyond a particular amount of rubbing or rubbing in a particular way produces small sparks. By doing this activity near highly inflammable materials like dry hay, the small sparks are sufficient to produce fire in the hay.

As matter is not different from energy. Anything that has matter does have energy. Hence there is energy in anything! Now is there energy even in the "empty" spaces. Think about it !!

Jai Sai Master !

Srusti.M

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Re: Questions & Facts about Energy
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2009, 10:02:01 PM »
All Uncles,

I've almost finished the exercises given by you all. I'll post them today or at least by tomorrow.
 
"We should not bother about a wish that Baba did not fulfill because we should believe that he did it for our own good. We need strong faith in Baba to believe that he does things for our own good."