Author Topic: Human Psychology  (Read 6815 times)

Srusti.M

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Re: Human Psychology
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2010, 12:14:53 AM »
Dwaraka Uncle,

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Firstly, coming from the other thread, yes, plants have feelings.

How do we know for sure Uncle? For e.x. whenever our science book tells us that this substance has this many molecules/atoms, or that this task needs potential energy, or that hydro power energy can change the face of the Earth and can endanger many organisms, or that there are 4 main parts in a complex organisms organization, the cells, the tissues, the organs, and the organ systems, all make up a complex organism like the homo sapiens. Or that the 1st law of Newton's 3 laws of motion states that an object in motion will stay in motion and an object in rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. But you have to understand the concept and have to experiment it to experience it. So, do you know of any experiments I can do to prove(to me) that plants have feelings? Or is your statement just a hypothesis?

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(And thoughts are different from feelings).

What is the difference between feelings and thoughts then? When does a person have feelings, and in which scenario will a person think or have thoughts?

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Secondly, for the above questions, there are many ways of explaining things. These ways are called 'Darshanas' by our elders. Read up on the six Darshanas.
 

So, there are always 6 different ways for explaining things?? For every question? I think that a Darshana is a point of view or perspective. Is that right?? I want some clarity on the 6 Darshanas........ So, in every set of questions and answers there are 6 different points of views??

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Did you think about the answers that were given to your earlier questions?


The questions and answers from this thread?? I just want to make sure, if so, I just want to go through the whole thread.
"We should not bother about a wish that Baba did not fulfill because we should believe that he did it for our own good. We need strong faith in Baba to believe that he does things for our own good."

Dwarakanath

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Re: Human Psychology
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2010, 10:15:26 AM »
Jai Sai Master!!

Great questions srusti.

First question :

How do we know that plants have feelings? There are innumerable experiments that have been conducted through out history where repeatedly mankind proved to itself that plants have feelings. Plants in the backyard respond to people differently!! The mere presence of a woodcutter is shown to induce different responses (chemical and biological) in plants, where as they responded differently to a watering person or a child.
However, keeping all that aside, even if we take it as a hypothesis, (which is a good thing to do, which we must do towards every other theory as proposed by science, for instance, newton's third law) we can still conduct an experiment and find out. But, as always, one has to understand exactly how a 'feeling' is manifest in a plant to check the validity.
In a human, for instance, feelings are shown on faces, where as a dog expresses also through its tail. So, how do plants 'express' feelings? Do they 'express' feelings at all? Or do they merely 'impress' (feel for themsleves) their feelings? These things we have to think through carefully.
Another aspect, which is largely left out by the 'text-book science' is that feelings INDUCE feelings. One feels 'uneasy' in a situation without an apparent reason. Or one feels 'elated' when one sees nature's beauty.  Why so?
This has been given to us as the 'law of harmony' where, when one is in the presence of harmony with which one can also identify, one feels 'good' and 'secure'.

Taking this law into the equation, one has to first understand how one's own 'feelings' are, to be able to appreciate how the plants feel. So, the prerequisite for a proper experiment is to study oneself thoroughly and learning to keep one's own feelings appropriate. Much like a 'Control zone' in a physical experiment, where other influences are nullified so that the phenomenon at hand can be observed, one has to keep one's mind 'attuned' to be able to observe the feelings induced by plants.

So far do you understand?

question 2 :

Feelings are our inner response to our thoughts, observations or conditions. Where as thoughts are schematic representations or deductions of observations, conditions and feelings. To put it in more common words, when something awful happens, one feels bad and pessimistic. Then the thoughts that arise are of pessimistic nature. For eg. there is a difference between feeling 'fear' and the thoughts that we get when we are 'afraid'. When one is in the dark and alone, one feels 'fear'. But then, based on the conditions (as to where one is and what one is taught), one gets thoughts of ghosts, or wild animals or theives, etc. The thoughts regarding Ghosts, for instance, is not FEAR, but it is a response to, or a reason for, fear.

Question 3 :

The world that we see, and the nature of all that exists, has been explained from 6 different points of view, traditionally. They are called 'shad-darshanas'. They are 6 ways of understanding the world. We shall talk about this after the plants question is discussed.

And yes, i was talking about questions from this thread. rather than just new questions, i was wondering if the old questions are being pursued by you or not.

Jai Sai Master!

Srusti.M

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Re: Human Psychology
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2010, 05:44:32 AM »
Dwaraka Uncle,

I have just (last night) gone through the whole thread, and I have read all the posts. In one of your posts (Reply #11) you said......

 
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However, when we look at leelas of Mahatmas or their teachings we can understand that plants and animals do 'feel', but generally they don?t 'think'..


You have already said that plants do feel in your previous post, and you said, ?That feelings are our inner response to our thoughts???.and thoughts are schematic representations??.of feelings.? You?re saying that in general, right Uncle? So, plants don?t do the whole process? Feel -->Think --> Express (or Impress :)). Can you explain some more on express and impress feelings?They just stop at feeling? Why do plants stop at feeling and why do humans complete the process? Imagine, you feel sad and hurt (pain) when you fell down on the playground and scraped your knee. That?s it, you don?t think about the pain or what your mom will say, and you don?t tell the teacher and cry or complain that it hurts. Wow! Being a Human-Plant is not easy!! Also in my post (Reply #13) I said?..

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How can there be feelings without thoughts. for eg if i touch an ice cube and feel the coldness, then my mind says that's cold take your hands off. So we have to think in order to feel some thing. right??

 (Sorry, I don?t know where the word ?coldness? came from, it?s not even a word, I mean ?cold surface.?) I got that mixed up. I mean to say, ?How can there be thoughts without feelings?? And, ?So we have to feel in order to think. Not vise-versa?. Sorry about the mistakes?

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That said, 'continuity of thought' is quite rare in animals. They don?t create concepts and build concepts on tops of concepts. They don?t 'teach' concepts to each other. Usually, their 'thoughts' or more involuntary and 'natural' than ours. This is the crucial difference between them and us.
 

Aren?t all thoughts involuntary? What makes animals? thoughts more involuntary? You also said that animals? thoughts are more natural than ours, are you saying that our thoughts aren?t as natural as animal thoughts or are you saying that our thoughts aren?t natural at all? If they aren?t natural they?re man-made. So, are our thoughts man-made? If thoughts aren?t so natural to humans, how is civilization possible? In order for us to do anything, we need to think. I agree that civilization has both pros & cons, since cave man times, as Master Garu says in Matam Enduku the real problem starts when the human being thinks that he is separate from Nature. Can we develop our civilization and be close to living naturally at the same time? How can we coordinate Nature and Technology, even though they are opposite of each other. For E.X. birds build their own homes, when we observe the structure of the nest, it is very impressive (by the way, if animals don?t think, how can birds build such tiny and impressive homes?). When we see the birds getting wet, ?suffering? in such heat, in cold, snowy weather, or when their eggs/babies fall out of their nests, I feel very sad when that happens. In one way they are very lucky and in another way they are unlucky.

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feelings INDUCE feelings. One feels 'uneasy' in a situation without an apparent reason. Or one feels 'elated' when one sees nature's beauty.

Why does that happen Uncle? Can you please explain some more on Induced feelings. Is it like this: A normal person sees a beautiful scene of nature, the feeling of joy induces the normal (normal state) feeling. Then he feels elated. Is this how?

Uncle, please try to answer all my questions, whenever we do this question and answer thing, sometimes you accidentally leave out some answers and I totally miss the question, and my question will never get answered. 
"We should not bother about a wish that Baba did not fulfill because we should believe that he did it for our own good. We need strong faith in Baba to believe that he does things for our own good."

Dwarakanath

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Re: Human Psychology
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2011, 01:10:59 PM »
Jai Sai Master!

Dearest srusti,

Regarding thoughts and feelings :

The primary question is, what is the nature of thought?
Another fundamental question is, what is the nature of feeling?
And then, the question comes regarding their relationship and how each effects the other.

Right?

Now, what is the nature of thought? For this, we have to understand what kinds of thoughts there are, how to observe them, etc. Also, for the other two questions, along with this one, to get a proper answer, we have to understand the nature of mind, especially, the nature of human mind. And to understand that, one has to understand how we 'function' every day, and also the relationship between things like consciousness, cognition, identification, sensations, memory, knowledge, intuition, spontaneity, common sense, logic, reflexivity, etc.  Also, one has to take into consideration the different states of mind that we observe, namely, wakefulness, sleep and dream.

And in the process of observing and understanding all that, one will come across to see how different states of mind are, and in the process, one gets to 'glimpse' a 'simile' of what a plant's mind might be and what a rock's conscious state might be like, and so on.

And to do all this, there is only one way. That is to observe. You see, i can tell you what i have observed, but that just will not be enough. Because, if you dont observe, you would not even know whether we are talking about the same thing!!
For eg., I tell you to bring some beetlenut for me to chew. You say, "oh.. what is beetlenut? how is it like?" I will tell you, "its in the jar in that cupboard. Its reddish brown and its in granulated form. It tastes like such and such." and so on.
Then, if you go and see, then it will start to make sense. Otherwise, if you just ask "how is it in granules?" or if you ask, "reddish brown? or brownish red?" etc., it kinda becomes a bit hard. The reason is a problem with language itself. It cannot express things accurately!!
But if you go and see, and you find a hundred reddishbrown granulated materials in jars, you can ask "which one is it?" Then, I could say, "its the one in the jar with the red lid. and third on the left." That settles the deal. And you would understand what it is, and would be able to recognize it every time later on.

Similarly, regarding these mind issues, we need to start observing, for the answers to start making sense. keep that in mind and read on.

Now. When i said "that feelings are our inner response to our thoughts", I was suggesting a relationship between thoughts and feelings. For eg., I heard a man say "get out" and he said it harshly.  Now, I might get 'upset' by the rudeness of the guy. But you see, there is nothing 'rude' about the two words 'get' and 'out'. We use them a lot. 'get the cat out' for eg. Or 'get out' in a game. etc. That is not rudeness. Then the guy's tone and voice, and the situation might suggest rudeness, right? But what we heard are just 'sounds'!! And that too just 'waves of energy transfer through air'!! Where is rudeness in them?
You see, its the combination that our mind works on, and 'thinks' and 'understands' the purport of what is said. And based on that it decides that it is 'rude'. And based on those thoughts, it gets a feeling of 'upset'. Right? But 'upset' is not there at all in any of those thoughts!! Its our mind's response to its own thoughts!!

You understand? Now stop. Think of this. Observe this for 10 to 15 days. Try to observe your feelings and see how many of those are because of your 'thinking' and 'understanding' of the situation. Some feelings may come more 'directly', that is, without or despite the thoughts. You will find them in your observation. Otherwise, observe till you find them!! Then you will also observe 'thoughts' which dont particularly awaken strong feelings. Like 'how much is 3 times 5?' kind of deductive thinking, etc.

Now observe all of them. See what you can find. Also, see why you think a particular way and not the other way. That is, why do you think that 'dirtiness' is bad? And then think, how much 'dirtiness' do you consider 'dirty', and why? And so on. Also look at what kind of a 'feeling' does dirtiness bring to you? Sometimes it might bring 'shame', sometimes 'frustation' and 'anger', sometimes 'revulsion' etc. Then think about how the same 'dirtiness' brought about those various feelings. Similarly, observe what kind of thoughts come because of feelings. That is, for eg., you might feel 'sad'. Sometimes, that sadness makes you 'cry'. Sometimes, it makes you 'angry' or 'frustrated', etc. Why? Also, why do people 'shout' when they are angry sometimes, and why they 'cry' when they are 'angry' at some other times? And yet some other times, they just 'walk away in a huff'!! Why?  Is the anger same?

Observe. Observe a lot. Observe all the time if you can.

Based on that, you can look at what 'happiness' or 'sadness' is. And also think of such things as 'why am I happy when I eat a chocolate?' etc. Think of things like, 'even if i know that this is bad right now, why do i do it?' or 'why do i feel lazy?' etc.

Doing all that will provide some understanding. Then what i say will start making sense because we will have a clearer understanding.

Right?

Regarding plants, 'natural' vs. unnatural, voluntary and involuntary, etc., can be explained and understood once we have done the above.

Jai Sai Master!!

Srusti.M

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Re: Human Psychology
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2011, 07:00:17 AM »
Dwaraka Uncle,

I have only read your post once. I will come up with a reply to your message in a couple of days, after I have read it thoroughly and have understood it fully and observe all the things you want me to observe......

Thank You.....
"We should not bother about a wish that Baba did not fulfill because we should believe that he did it for our own good. We need strong faith in Baba to believe that he does things for our own good."