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Leelas & Others => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dwarakanath on November 06, 2009, 09:32:39 PM

Title: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 06, 2009, 09:32:39 PM
Jai Sai Master!

here is the new thread. lets get it rolling. And may Master bless us all with better understanding through this thread. May He speak through us.

I will start it tonight after rechecking some references.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: svelagal on November 06, 2009, 10:28:29 PM
OM SRI SAIRAM !

Dwarakanath garu,

Thanks for starting a new thread. Its good to see you back on action with such a useful topic.
if possible can you please throw some light on how to lead a successful marriage life as well.
I hope there will be marriages, even though it might be called as any thing else (licence or contract).

A successful married couple are the necessity for upbringing the children for the next generation.

can you please focus your view on this thing. It will be helpful for a bachelor like me and few who got married and leading a good life.

Thanks,
Sateesh.

OM SRI SAIRAM !



Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: rajashri on November 06, 2009, 10:50:50 PM
jai sai master!!
jai junior sai master!
Thank you Babugaru. for starting the thread.


I for one am against the mother working unless it is absolutely necessary for her to work. Care to discuss from scratch anyone?? And I dont think motherhood is over glorified in this thread. I see lot of excuses for woman-freedom and exceptions to performance of motherhood in this thread being used as 'logic'.


I want to know about the justifications and exceptions of woman working even though there is no dire need to work for the family.
When i hear about these exceptions and logic i also get carried away and feel may be i am not with the flow of the world.And as Baba said "pani cheyyi ,devuni namam ucharinchu... "ante ikkada pani ante kevalam inti pani ye kakunda eppudu busy gaa undataniki ,degrees chaduvukunnanduku medhassuni, chaduvuni upayoginchataniki udyogam chesi teeralannadi another point.Anduke naa first post lo i asked from both the perspectives-spiritual and material well being.
jai sai master!!
rajasri
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: sai_prince on November 06, 2009, 11:37:17 PM



mmmmmm...... Honestly... after reading that post completely....... I dont think I agree with the ideas in that post/thread.... I dont think most of the marriages are licensed prostitutions....(atleast thst what I understood from the post)
[/quote]

Jai Sai Master!

Good that you disagree. Understanding comes when both of us agree on the 'definition' and 'purpose' of marriage. I think thats where the problem is. And from what  I see, I do see that most marriages are non-marriages, if not out right 'licensed prostitutions'.

Jai Sai Master!!
[/quote]

Looking forward for a nice discussion/debate to improve my understanding on the 'definition' and 'purpose' of marriage.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 06, 2009, 11:45:23 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Satishgaru,

definitely that point will be touched.

Rajasrigaru,

Your question regarding 'using education' and its relation to 'job' will be covered, but lets get the discussion to a point where that can be easily discussed and understood. hope you can wait.


Now.

First few things we need to remember through out this discussion.

1. The Child is an individual, just like an adult.
2. Humans, unlike other animals (most of them), have what Master E.K. calls 'Continuity of thought'. That is, we can continue the same idea and improve upon it day after day, year after year and generation after generation, and also, spread that knowledge among all the individuals.
3. ideas regarding whats best for a couple, for an individual, for the society and for future generations depends upon the value sets of the individual who has those ideas. For someone who is 'fixed' upon the idea of making one's kid an IIT graduate, the whole process of upbringing looks very different to that of another who has the idea of making one's kid a sports person. So, its key to have an understanding of each other's value sets before we discuss whats best. What I mean by 'value set' is the whole set of opinions, ideas, thoughts, beliefs and attitudes. For each individual, they are shaped both by the internal condition of that individual and the external conditions that individual is subject to. However, one needs a standard, a goal so to say, to achieve or to look up to (and correspondingly look down upon another), in order for betterment or worsening to occur. For this, one needs to really see what one's standard is. Mine is what is told by Mahatmas, Master in particular, and other greats such as Gandhiji and Subhash Bose and Ravindranath Tagore.
4. Intellect, rational, knowledge, etc. form one portion of the 'mind set' (which is a super set of 'value set', incorporating behavior patterns, tendencies, etc.) while emotions and drives form another. Ignoring one aspect and looking lopsidedly at another causes confusion, especially when we start discussing about how to 'build' the mind set of the parent and the child.
5. A complete individual is one whose different facets of life such as health (both physical and mental), education, knowledge, social outlook, values, etc. are brought to the maximum possible correctness (efficiency and effectiveness, to use 'MBA' words :) ).
6. The goal of marriage is not just progeny.
7. Progeny, when looked at as an individual, gives only part of the theme. When looked at as 'children' and as 'generation', it becomes more complete. When looked at the scale of 'humanity', it becomes complete.
8. The goal of life is contentment (satisfaction in its most appropriate sense) and peace for the individual and for the society. All other aspects of life are 'tools' to achieve this goal.
9. Last but not least, Mahatmas words are final. We either can live by them or not, like them or not, accept them or not, but that doesnt mean that our intellect and 'opinions' are more sound and complete than theirs. That doesnt mean that we should blindly accept them. It only means that we should keep seeking better understanding in order to comprehend them, rather than blindly and arrogantly question them. The more we are in disagreement with them, the farther our understanding is from its fulfillment. The teachings and sayings of Mahatmas provide the direction and scale for us to think.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Priya on November 07, 2009, 01:08:08 AM
Jai sai Master

Quote
I for one am against the mother working unless it is absolutely necessary for her to work. Care to discuss from scratch anyone?? And I dont think motherhood is over glorified in this thread. I see lot of excuses for woman-freedom and exceptions to performance of motherhood in this thread being used as 'logic'.

ఈ discussionలో తెలియకుండా motherhoodని glorify చేసామేమో.నా ఉద్దేశమైతే దానిని అడ్డుపెట్టుకుని మాట్లాడాలని కాదు.అసల పిల్లలే వద్దు అనుకుంటున్నారు అనటం వల్ల అలా చెయ్యవలసి వచ్చింది.                

Quote
Baba said "pani cheyyi ,devuni namam ucharinchu... "ante ikkada pani ante kevalam inti pani ye kakunda eppudu busy gaa undataniki ,degrees chaduvukunnanduku medhassuni, chaduvuni upayoginchataniki udyogam chesi teeralannadi another point.

Yes,స్త్రీ చదువుకోవాలి మేధస్సును పెంచుకోవాలి.కానీ ఉద్యోగం చేసి తీరాలి అన్న point ఎంతవరకు correct? నాకు కొన్ని doubtsఉన్నాయి.
 
1.దానికి ఉద్యోగమే చేసి తీరాలా?Spiritualగా ఎదగకూడదా?

2.ఉదాహరణకు నా ఇంట్లో చిన్నపిల్లలు ఉన్నారు వాళ్ళ care గురించి job చెయ్యటం లేదు. ఇప్పుడు నన్ను నీకు ఏదికావాలి అని అడిగితే నేను నా ఉద్యోగం కన్నా నా పిల్లల care నాకు ముఖ్యం అంటాను.Right or wrong?
(అర్ధిక పరిస్థితుల గురించి మాట్లాడం లేదు)
 
3.నా ఇంట్లో పెద్దవయస్సులో ఉన్న నా అత్త మామలు ఉన్నారు. వాళ్ళకు care అవసరం నేను  ఉద్యోగం చెయ్యకుండా వాళ్ళ సంరక్షన నాకు అవసరం అనుకున్నాను.దానికి నా భర్త job నేను ఇంట్లో ఉంటున్నాను. ఈ పరిస్థితులలో job చేసి తీరాలి అన్న point కుదరదు అవసరం లేదు.

4. నా మేధస్సు పెంచుకోడానికి కాక విలాసమైన జీవితం కోసమో సరదాకో,పురుష ద్వేషంతోనో job చెయ్యవలసిన అవసరం లేదు. ఇక్కడ ఏ ఉద్దేశంతో చెయ్యాలనుకుంటున్నామనేది point.

ఇక్కడ ఎక్కడా ఆర్ధికపరిస్థితి గురించి మాట్లాట్టం లేదు.

ఉద్యోగం చెయ్యడం great అని చదువుకుని ఇంట్లో ఉండవలసి వస్తే అది ఏదో తప్పు అని అనుకోవడం పొరపాటు అని నా భావం. ఒకవేళ ఇద్దరులో ఒకరే చెయ్యాలనుకుంటే అది పురుషులకు ఇవ్వడంలో తప్పులేదు.
దానిని స్త్రీ తక్కువగా అనుకో వలసిన అవసరం లేదు.
 
(నిజానికి గతంలో నేను ఆడవారివైపు ఎక్కువగా మాట్లాడే దాన్నినా తప్పు తెలుసుకుని అన్ని కోణాలలోను,practical possibility అన్నీ ఆలోచించి మాట్లాడుతున్నాను)అసల సమస్యలు ఎక్కువ తక్కువలు అనుకోవటం వలనే వస్తున్నాయి.

నేను ఆడవారు వంటింటికే పరిమితం అని అనటం లేదు.పరిస్థితుల బట్టి మార్చుకోవడం చిన్నతనం కాదు అని నా ఉద్దేశం.పురుషుల పాత్ర లేదు అనటం లేదు.అన్ని పరిస్థితులు అనుకులంగా(In-lawsకి మరీ పెద్దవయస్సు కాకుండా,కొంచం పెద్ద పిల్లలు ఉన్నవారు) ఇలాంటప్పుడు చక్రీ గారు మాట్లాడిన points సరిపోతాయి.  

బాబు గారు నా వల్ల discussion అంతా మారిపొతోందేమో.నాకు కొంచం health బాగోలేదు. ఈ discussionలో ఎంత participate చెయ్యగలనో తెలియదు. అందుకే నా అభిప్రాయాలు అన్నీ చెప్పేసాను.

 
Jai Sai Master    
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on November 07, 2009, 01:45:51 AM
Dear sai bandhus,
my pranams to all.

Dear Dwarakanath garu,

pranams to you again, been a long time.... :-)

may be its a bit too early for me.... but let me start off, from your post......

As a slow learner, which I am, Let us go a little bit slow.......

I do understand your points 1 through 5 and 9. But i think I am not clear on 6 to 8.


6. The goal of marriage is not just progeny.
7. Progeny, when looked at as an individual, gives only part of the theme. When looked at as 'children' and as 'generation', it becomes more complete. When looked at the scale of 'humanity', it becomes complete.
8. The goal of life is contentment (satisfaction in its most appropriate sense) and peace for the individual and for the society. All other aspects of life are 'tools' to achieve this goal.


So, the goal of marriage is to prepare the next generation?? Marriage is a tool to get contention in all aspects of life..... Did i understand it right? No wonder why sachin tendulkar is going great guns, because he was married at 22 yrs and got contention.... (just kidding) What is that contention we are looking at??

Can you please explain more on what is and what constitutes a correct marriage in your opinion, and what is the goal of marriage (if there is any).....


I hope there will be marriages, even though it might be called as any thing else (licence or contract).



Not sure of the driving license part of the marriage,,,, been a long time we discussed on that thread, but let us revisit and give a probation to that license, and get more.......


ఈ discussionలో తెలియకుండా motherhoodని glorify చేసామేమో.నా ఉద్దేశమైతే దానిని అడ్డుపెట్టుకుని మాట్లాడాలని కాదు.అసల పిల్లలే వద్దు అనుకుంటున్నారు అనటం వల్ల అలా చెయ్యవలసి వచ్చింది.                

I think nothing wrong in glorifying motherhood, as it rightfully deserves..... What constitutes motherhood, is the question?? As it is said in one movie (Bruce almighty I think, not exact words) Making fire on water is a cheap trick and not godly,,,,, A single mother having two jobs to support her kids and still manages time to attend her son's football match, to make him happy is a miracle and par godly.... I think The base minimum could be to glorify  it.......

We will latter come to the topic of parenting....

Om sai ram
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: chakri on November 07, 2009, 01:52:05 AM
Jai Sai Master,

Dwarakanath garu excellent post....I couldn't agree more with your below quote. I became a fan of this quote.

Quote
Mahatmas words are final. We either can live by them or not, like them or not, accept them or not, but that doesn't mean that our intellect and 'opinions' are more sound and complete than theirs. That doesn't mean that we should blindly accept them. It only means that we should keep seeking better understanding in order to comprehend them, rather than blindly and arrogantly question them. The more we are in disagreement with them, the farther our understanding is from its fulfillment. The teachings and sayings of Mahatmas provide the direction and scale for us to think.

Coming to our point of discussion......I feel there is nothing wrong with women working. In the initial years after kid is born I agree that kid needs to be with mother and so mom can take a break during that time. What is wrong with women working before conceiving kids and once after kids go to school?

How can we restrict women to just be stay at home moms and not let them do what they want to when we pray to them as adi shakti - chaitanyam based on which this whole universe exists. I think the gap we see here is awareness of the goals of life and how the things we do in different aspects of life help achieve our goal. This understanding needs to be there for both men and women. If men do not understand this and tell women what to do it will be dictatorship. If everyone is taught from childhood that the goal in life is divinity and to how gruhasta ashramam helps acheive it then only contenment can come in life. Everyone thinks that materialistic life and spiritual life are different. I thought similarly until I read master books.

If women want to work we should allow them to work but we should let them and men know about the goal of life. Without knowing the goals it will just be a rat race. As sai baba said "Anduku vachinatu pidakalu arukodanika". In the current environment this kind of awareness is not passed from parents to kids.

Jai Sai Master
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 07, 2009, 08:23:31 AM
Jai Sai Master!


Quote
Coming to our point of discussion......I feel there is nothing wrong with women working. In the initial years after kid is born I agree that kid needs to be with mother and so mom can take a break during that time. What is wrong with women working before conceiving kids and once after kids go to school?

Chakri garu, Nothing wrong with WOMAN doing a job. Its actually super awesome. I really think we need good women as the heads of some of the social institutions (industries, politics, etc.) at this juncture in human history. Thats a different discussion alltogether why i think so. However, I am against a MOTHER working unless it is absolutely necessary for her to do so. We will come to that part of discussion.

Priyagaru,
What you said is quite right. There is no compulsion on anyone to do a job, unless it is necessary for that person (male or female) to do a job. However, we will come to your points in due course. May Baba bless you with good health. Get well soon!


SWARUPGAARUUU!!!
Jai Sai Master!
You might not believe it,  but I missed you! Great to see you back online!

Quote
Quote from: Dwarakanath on Today at 11:15:23 AM
Quote
6. The goal of marriage is not just progeny.
7. Progeny, when looked at as an individual, gives only part of the theme. When looked at as 'children' and as 'generation', it becomes more complete. When looked at the scale of 'humanity', it becomes complete.
8. The goal of life is contentment (satisfaction in its most appropriate sense) and peace for the individual and for the society. All other aspects of life are 'tools' to achieve this goal.


So, the goal of marriage is to prepare the next generation?? Marriage is a tool to get contention in all aspects of life..... Did i understand it right? No wonder why sachin tendulkar is going great guns, because he was married at 22 yrs and got contention.... (just kidding) What is that contention we are looking at??

Can you please explain more on what is and what constitutes a correct marriage in your opinion, and what is the goal of marriage (if there is any).....

Not completely. The goal of marriage is not JUST progeny. Meaning, its not just for kids that one should marry. There are many more other reasons for marrying (or not marrying). Preparing the next generation is part of that goal. Its part of that responsiblity.

By the way, I was talking about "contentment" and not "contention". "Trupti" is what I mean.
I will come to the point of what constitutes a correct marriage in my opinion, and the goal of marriage in a few posts.  Because, for us to understand the role of marriage in the life of an individual, and in society and the world at large, we first need to understand the 'value set' of the individual(s) first.

I will write that in a few minutes.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on November 07, 2009, 08:33:13 AM
Jai Sai Master !

Dear Saibandhus, we should also be concerned about the fact that this forum is read by people who might not be able to understand Telugu. For the benefit of all, please stick to English only. I accept that sometimes we feel we can better communicated in our own language. However it causes people not understanding Telugu to lose the flow of the discussion.

Please stick to English only.

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on November 07, 2009, 09:01:07 AM
Jai Sai Master !

I understand that. However, in that case, some one should volunteer to translate Telugu into English, so that other forum members can also read the thread fully. Else not everybody will join the thread fully. Secondly, many forum members including me keep checking back at previous posts, so these discussions are for eternity, not just for now.

The intention is not to disrupt the thread, its just to make the thread more widely read and much more widely discussed. Please understand the spirit :)

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 07, 2009, 09:54:34 AM
Jai Sai Master!

As Master says, "To blossom every moment into a better manifestation of perfection is the only business of life". This statement is a good start for our discussion as it provides two important points.
1. Generally, the life of most people (all non-mahatmas) is not THE BEST manifestation of perfection. That is, there is scope for improvement from the not-so-perfect situation.
2. That perfection indeed is the goal of life. Perfection, as we can see from other Master's works, is the supreme spirit.  Being spiritual and improving every moment in that endeavor is the drive of life.

Now, what constitutes such a life?

As we have seen earlier in many discussions, such a life will be spiritual, whether we name it as such or not. Fulfilling one's responsibilities (Dharma) in all aspects of life is what it is. Striving towards equiping ourselves for it, and doing it, constitutes Sadhana.

Individual responsibility as well as social responsibility are part of that.  Our ancient traditions and customs were designed to provide such a life style, although, as time passed, their meaning got lost to the populace and most of them remain as mere rituals and dogmas.

Such a life includes, as we have said, honing of the various aspects of being 'human'. Intellect, wisdom, courage, patience, Khsama, Clarity, on the mental side, physical well being, usefulness, stamina, etc. on the physical side, relationships, responsibilities, social awareness, trying to be useful to others and the society, etc. on the social side. Along with these, there is also the side of in-being, contemplation, transcendence, meditation, insight, strength of will and betterment of one's self-image and world-image, working our way out of our basic insecurities, harmonizing our basic tendencies so that they support the other three, etc.

This is given in the following classification as "Karma" (karma as in action in accordance with Dharma):
1. Adhibhoutikam - relating to physical and personal, as well as everything mundane, that is social responsiblities, roles, etc.
2. Adhidaivikam - relating to the world at large, and the forces and consciousnesses that run this world in accordance with the Supreme spirit
3. Adhyatmikam - in-being, God, Sadhana side of things.

The idea is that the perfect human would be perfect in all actions (and responses) in all the above three aspects of one's life. That is, one has to be good to himself and the society and the world, one has to be perfect in matters of 'forces of the universe' (Devas) (that is towards the mechanisms that provide for the running of creation such as causality, fate, etc. to water cycles and utilization of natural resources, respecting nature of our planet, its life forms, and also the nature of other people as well, etc.) and also to be perfect in aspects of meditation, self-awareness, Sadhana, etc.

Spirituality is the path to lasting peace and contentment (trupti and shanti) that everyone is seeking so desperately for. And so, a life in spirituality is what is desired. And such a life will include all the aspects indicated by the above classification. In such a life-style, everything that a person does, from utilizing one's time and resources properly, to marriage, to social responsiblities to sadhana, everything is geared towards achieving the above and in turn achieving lasting trupti and shanti. Marriage, along with other institutions, is designed to provide for such a life-style. And progeny, taking care of the next generation, etc. are all parts of that.

For a person who is trying to 'blossom every moment into a better manifestation of perfection', a lifestyle that utilizes and improves upon the potential of every human being towards the achievement of the above conditions is the goal. That is, such a person must utilize his natural strengths, remove his natural weaknesses and harmonize his drives and energies towards better causes, while at the same time trying to be useful to himself and the society at large  in every department possible.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on November 07, 2009, 06:03:07 PM

Such a life includes, as we have said, honing of the various aspects of being 'human'. Intellect, wisdom, courage, patience, Khsama, Clarity, on the mental side, physical well being, usefulness, stamina, etc. on the physical side, relationships, responsibilities, social awareness, trying to be useful to others and the society, etc. on the social side. Along with these, there is also the side of in-being, contemplation, transcendence, meditation, insight, strength of will and betterment of one's self-image and world-image, working our way out of our basic insecurities, harmonizing our basic tendencies so that they support the other three, etc.


I think there are some what similar theories wherein, risk/benefit index when it is low, for individual altruistic human tendencies mentioned above were positively selected in the evolution of mankind in a self-sustaining manner, but thats a different discussion....
As most of us will, I agree to all of it,  ....


Spirituality is the path to lasting peace and contentment (trupti and shanti) that everyone is seeking so desperately for. And so, a life in spirituality is what is desired.


Hmmm..... There are some worldly things like, karmas, dharmas (whatever)...  Spirituality is the only path, I think is subject to arguement, but for the sake of it, let us say I agree that part too.....

In general All of your post does make perfect sense...And value sets (of what you have written) in general all of us (i think but for real hardcore criminals) do agree on it and most of them definitely aspire for (atleast in dreams), regardless of achieving it or not, ....  But the key is how we fine tune every day of our life (marriage, parenting, being one of those, and topic of current discussion) towards achieving those, as none of us can be perfect overnight......  
 
But on a softer and franker side, may be you will agree (and may be everyone one) on our pertinent topic of discussion, when I first read a philosophical post like this, my first intention is more like "this is too superficial and too philosophical an aspect to what I want.....  :) ??? :o........ what i want is finer details, and thats where most of the questions come from .... Of course I am sure you are setting up a stage for the actual topic of discussion,,,,,,, Looking forward for your next post......

Om sai ram
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 09, 2009, 01:28:12 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Swarupgaru,

Yes, I am talking about phylosophy first because its going to help in mutual understanding of further statements made without sentence by sentence clarification later on.



Now, when the goal is to lead a life as mentioned above, and when one observes oneself as not being up to the mark, then one has to see and understand the reasons for not being able to live like that. And one has to try and strive to adjust and train oneself to be so. And one of the most common reasons that we have is that 'we dont understand' or 'we have not been trained in that way earlier'.

Its a well known fact that we learn and follow, to a large extent, things that we are witnesses of, since childhood. The culture, the value set, essentially, is based on the situations we  face, based on the things we are 'used to', and the way our thinking has developed over the years since childhood. And we can see the disastrous effects of lack of proper upbringing that is impinging our our society. Everything from religious fanatism to the common man's plight of not understanding the goal, seem to be generated mainly because of the above mentioned problem of not getting trained properly since childhood.

True that some studies in science have shown (in nature vs. nurture debate) that nature plays major part than nurture (when identical twins, seperated at birth grew up in different cultures and countries, without any connection between them through out life, they still seem to  develop identical habbits and patterns and views of life), we still have nurture in our control. Even if we say its nature 70 - nurture 30 percent influence, 30 percent itself is quite substantial.

Also, not always that people follow what they are taught. They grow out of habbits, change patterns, develop new views on life, etc. as they grow. This gives a chance that people can become better, and also a chance that people become worse. But without strong foundations, the likelihood of people becoming worse are more. This in turn makes the whole society go up and down in terms of its culture and values.

Nature provides a great boon in 'change of generation' to rectify this and start afresh, as much as possible. It provides a way to replace all the parts of the society with new and fresh ones through the mechanisms of death and birth. And so, when we look at this, we can clearly see the potential that is there in 'new generations' to make better citizen and in turn, better society.

Hence, it is imperative to focus on proper upbringing of the next generation. Such upbringing must, therefore, be in such a way that spirituality blossoms in the children.


Master writes about it here in Matam enduku :
http://www.divyajanani.org/saibharadwaja/books/ReadBook.asp?PNo=ME0056 uptill here
http://www.divyajanani.org/saibharadwaja/books/ReadBook.asp?PNo=ME0062

And in Prabothamritam here  :
http://www.divyajanani.org/saibharadwaja/books/prabodhamrutham/P21_30.html
to end of chapter.


Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaiSiva.Gorthi on November 10, 2009, 06:25:46 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Hearty pranams to The Sai Master in all of you.
 
These discussions and Babugari's replies are reminding me of the Master's words in the Foreword of Sri Chivatam Amma charitra and in chapter-24 of Dhyana Yoga Sarvaswam.

For the questions pertaining to marriage, responsibilities of a house holder (as a Mother/Father) etc.., and the link between this thread and the posts on the other thread (Tatwa jnaanam) as Babu garu mentioned, Masters (Sadgurus) words show right direction to us.

In page 86 of Dhyana Yoga Sarvaswam Master mentioned the following things: (Please read the entire chapter-24 at http://www.divyajanani.org/saibharadwaja/books/dhyanayogasarvaswamu/Chapter24.html)

విషయ భోగలాలసనుంచీ మనస్సును విడదీయటం, చైతన్య ద్రవణం కావించటం బ్రహ్మచర్య, కన్యాత్వాల లక్ష్యం. ఘనీభావం చెయ్యటం 'గృహస్త, సన్యాస' ఆశ్రమాల ఆదర్శం. కేవలం సంఘాన్ని ఉద్ధరించే సామర్ధ్యం కల సంతానాన్ని పొంది, వారికి సాధ్యమైన జ్ఞానసంపదను నిలపటానికి మాత్రమే వివాహం. కామాన్ని అనుభవించటానికి కాదు. ....  .....  ....  .........  .... ప్రకృతి బీజమాత్రంగా తనకు ఇచ్చిన వాటిని బడికివెళ్లి సక్రమంగా వృద్ధి చేసుకొని, సంఘంలో కట్టుబాటుగా బ్రతికి, నియమాలతో, సాధనతో చైతన్య ఘనత పొందితే సార్ధకం.అప్పుడు గృహస్థుడైనా చెడడు; జాతి వృద్ధి పొందుతుంది. సాధన కొంచెం మిగిలి అది పూర్తి చేసుకొని పరిపూర్ణుడయ్యేవాడు అటువంటి గర్భవాసాన పుడతాడు. అందుకే వివాహం.

ఇట్లాకాక యింద్రియ సుఖాన్ననుభవించటం - ఏ  యింద్రియాన్నయినా సరే అనుభవించటం తప్పుదారికే తీస్తుంది. ....  ....  ......  ..... అట్లానే జాతి వృద్ధికి ఉన్నది (సంఖ్యలో కాదు, లక్షణంలో) కామం. దాన్ని ఆనందానుభవంగా చేసుకుంటే పాపమవుతుంది. ఇతర నవీన శాస్త్రాలు దీనినెందుకు గుర్తించవు? అంటే-...... ....  ... ...  

(To understand the meaning of the words like chaitanya dravaNaM,  chaitanya ghanata, badi etc. we need to study this chapter from the beginning. I should not have posted bits like this, as the necessary terms are defined by Master before, but could not resist myself from pointing to this wonderful chapter)


In the foreword of the book on Sri Chivatam Amma, Master mentioned that:
నేను దర్శించిన మహాత్ములు- అవధూత శ్రీ చివటం అమ్మ,  పేజీ: V, VI:

ప్రతి జీవికీ జన్మత: వుండే శారీరక, మానసిక సామర్ధ్యాలు సంపూర్ణంగా వికసించడము, అట్టి వికాసం పొందిన సంతతిని జాతియొక్క పురోగమనం కోసం అర్పించడమే ప్రకృతి యొక్క లక్ష్యం. ఈ సత్యాన్ని గుర్తించి కృషి చేయకుంటే వ్యక్తి, సమాజము గూడా తారుమారవుతాయి. విశేషమైన సహజ ప్రతిభ వలన అట్టి వికాసం చెందిన మహనీయుల నుండి అట్టి అవగాహన, క్రమ శిక్షణా ప్రతివారూ పొందవలసినదేనని అన్ని మతాలూ చెబుతాయి. దీనినే ధర్మమని హిందూ మతం, శీలమని బౌద్ధ-జైన మతాలు, మార్గము (.....) అని క్రైస్తవము మరియు తావో మతాలు, 'షరియత్' అని ఇస్లాము వ్యవహరించాయి.
 
ఇట్టి క్రమశిక్షణనిచ్చే జీవిత విధానమే మహర్షులేర్పరిచిన బ్రహ్మచర్యము మొ||న నాలుగు ఆశ్రమాలు. అపుడు ఐహికము, పారమార్దికము పరస్పర విరుద్ధాలవవు. పరమార్ధానికి సాధనంగా ఐహిక జీవితాన్ని, జాతి యొక్క ఐహిక జీవితాన్ని ఉత్తమంగా తీర్చి దిద్దగల పధకంగా ఆధ్యాత్మిక జీవితమూ నిలుస్తాయి.

After reading the sentence written by master 'ప్రతి జీవికీ జన్మత: వుండే శారీరక, మానసిక సామర్ధ్యాలు సంపూర్ణంగా వికసించడము, అట్టి వికాసం పొందిన సంతతిని జాతియొక్క పురోగమనం కోసం అర్పించడమే ప్రకృతి యొక్క లక్ష్యం. ఈ సత్యాన్ని గుర్తించి కృషి చేయకుంటే వ్యక్తి, సమాజము గూడా తారుమారవుతాయి.', we may sometimes think that, that is what in fact we are (everyone is) trying in our own way and why do we need Spirituality and Master?

Many times though we get to know, by different means, what one has to follow ideally, its implementation seems to be almost beyond our reach. For this reason Master emphasizes repeatedly the importance of resorting to Sadguru and surrendering our self to Him (meaning of seranaagati can be found from Masters words in Pages 46,47 of Dhyana Yoga Sarvaswam at http://www.divyajanani.org/saibharadwaja/books/dhyanayogasarvaswamu/Chapter14.html and in Prabhodaamritam in Sadguru Vaakyopadesam http://www.divyajanani.org/saibharadwaja/books/prabodhamrutham/P40_50.html).

In any matter, irrespective of our personal opinions, as babu garu mentioned, it is only Mahatmas words should be the reference or bench marks. As they alone can lead us on to the path of attaining everlasting happiness. Not even the opinions of great intellectuals; as many Scientists whose work has produced great impact all over the world, still may have attitudes that are unethical. I mean attitude that neither brings peace and happiness to them (personally) nor to those who are around them. i.e., they still suffer from Raaga, Dweshas as equally as a common man. Only Saints teachings can help us in stepping out of this zone. For me Masters words seem to bring so much solace and give strength and happiness even when the great Scientists (with whom I was working or interacting) fail to provide right perspective. What I intend to express is that, in any matter if we depend just on our limited intellectual reasoning biased with our likes and dislikes, we may end up in choosing wrong path (path that takes us away from the life that gives true happiness). The live examples are the cases of many Scientists (no doubt they are great intellectuals; my intention here is not at all to criticize them, only to highlight the importance of giving utmost consideration to the teachings of Saints even though our personal opinions, likes and dislikes, differ from them. In such cases, we need to improve our understanding till we get the right perspective or pray to Master to equip us with proper perspective on those issues).      

A stanza from Baba's Kaakada aarati (Morning haarati) emphasizes the same:

Asa bahut shaahanaa pari na jyaa Guroochi kripa
Na tatswahit tyaa kalae karitase rikamya gapaa
jari Gurupada dhari sudhrid bhaktineh to manaa
Samartha Guru Sainath puravee manovaasanaa

Meaning:
However wise a person is if he does not have the Guru's blessings he cannot understand what is good for his welfare and can only indulge in mere prattle. Firmly hold the Guru's feet with one-pointed devotion. May the Samatrh (Powerful) Guru Sainath fulfil our desires.

మానస భజరే గురుచరణం, దుస్తర భవసాగర తరణం
maanasa bhajarae gurucharaNaM, dustara bhavasaagara taraNaM

I pray Master to ignite the fire (the desire of following His teachings) in our hearts and bow to His lotus feet earnestly requesting Him to keep that desire consistently till we change our conduct in accordance with His teachings.

Jai Sai Master!

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: sai_prince on November 10, 2009, 07:53:36 AM
Quiet frankly, I am not sure why the comparision to scientists was brought.... We need not be scientists  to be good job holders, husband/wife or good mothers or /fathers :)
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Priya on November 10, 2009, 07:59:25 AM
Quote
And in Prabothamritam here  :
http://www.divyajanani.org/saibharadwaja/books/prabodhamrutham/P21_30.html
to end of chapter.

Jai Sai Master

జీవితంలో చదువుకోవడం,వృత్తి కొనసాగించడం,సంసారిక జీవిత భాద్యతలను నిర్వహించడం,బిడ్డలను సాకడం - యివ్వన్ని సంతోషంతో మనిషి కొనసాగించడు,గత్యంతరం లేక చేస్తాడు.-----(prabothamritam)

How to be detached (nishkama karma) while performing all our duties( like kid's education, marriages etc)?

 Jai Sai Master 
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: sai_prince on November 10, 2009, 08:06:45 AM
Quote
And in Prabothamritam here  :


జీవితంలో చదువుకోవడం,వృత్తి కొనసాగించడం,సంసారిక జీవిత భాద్యతలను నిర్వహించడం,బిడ్డలను సాకడం - యివ్వన్ని సంతోషంతో మనిషి కొనసాగించడు,గత్యంతరం లేక చేస్తాడు.-----(prabothamritam)




so is it reasonable to think, the sentence means,,,,,manishi gathyantharam lekha puttadu, gathyantharam lekha brathukuthunnadu...... or those things should be done happily....?? 
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 10, 2009, 09:14:40 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Excellent post Sai Siva garu.

Saiprince,
Scientists are brought into comparison(quite unconsciously and with best intentions only) because they seem to represent the best of human intellect. Its like saying "Even Arjuna was afraid.." Not that Arjuna was specifically the only one that is afraid, but EVEN the great Arjuna, who seems to be above the average human, was afraid! Dont take it to heart too much.


Quote from: Priya on Today at 07:29:25 PM
Quote
Quote
And in Prabothamritam here  :


జీవితంలో చదువుకోవడం,వృత్తి కొనసాగించడం,సంసారిక జీవిత భాద్యతలను నిర్వహించడం,బిడ్డలను సాకడం - యివ్వన్ని సంతోషంతో మనిషి కొనసాగించడు,గత్యంతరం లేక చేస్తాడు.-----(prabothamritam)




so is it reasonable to think, the sentence means,,,,,manishi gathyantharam lekha puttadu, gathyantharam lekha brathukuthunnadu...... or those things should be done happily....??

It means, we aught  to do them happily, but we dont.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: sai_prince on November 10, 2009, 09:15:03 PM

Scientists are brought into comparison ............ Dont take it to heart too much.





No NoNo.... thats fine.... ACtually, I dont care, because I am neither a philosopher nor a scientist nor a mahatma.... More horribly, I dont even aspire to be one :)
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 10, 2009, 11:43:22 PM
Jai Sai Master!

In the light of what Sai Siva and I have posted from Master's works, we should try and see what is best for the humanity. But, we all have weaknesses and cannot go beyond a point (and that is where we have to try our best to improve from our situation, by understanding what Master says). Hence, we can see the best and we can try to accommodate to the maximum extent possible, in our lives, for the best.

A couple more articles of Master are available in the previous magazines that we put pdfs of, on saibharadwaja.org regarding kids and education. I will put up one more now, which is going to come in the december magazine.  I also want to present excerpts from a speech by Master E.K. regarding child upbringing which He gave in germany ( I guess, may be it is geneva ). I urge people not to share it outside here as the permission from Master E.K.'s family has been obtained for sharing it just for this discussion. I request people to buy the collection of His speeches so that we dont fall prey to the ugly habbit of piracy, that too of Spiritual Master pieces.

The will come up in my next post.. (currently transcribing the speech of Master E.K.)

After we see that, we have to look at our own values and what we are providing our next generation currently. Then we have to look at what we can change, atleast in our own little community and its children, to provide them the best. Then we have to look at our own situation and see what we can do about it. And based on the above mentioned ideas that are presented by the truly Greats (Mahatmas), we should recheck our opinions regarding issues like mothers working, child upbringing, schools, education, co-education schools, family system, etc. and clear out any faults in them, in the light of what Masters told. Atleast at an intellectual and understanding level we should be able to appreciate what the Masters told, even if we cannot follow them currently in our lives. Then, out of the discrepancy comes the repentance, and out of it comes the drive and ultimately, the desired change.

But, if we plan to stick on to our own, dearly held, half-baked opinions, further reading of this thread is entertainment at best, and a mere time waste at its worst. But reading ahead will atleast give us hope of change. So, I suggest we read ahead carefully.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: vallibhuvan on November 11, 2009, 03:05:00 AM
Jai Sai Master!
                    Babu garu, where can we buy Master E.Ks speeches?

Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on November 11, 2009, 09:23:13 AM
Jai Sai Master !

Where do you stay ?

Correct address will be provided.

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: svelagal on November 11, 2009, 09:52:08 AM
OM SRI SAIRAM !

Dwaraknath garu, Sai Siva garu,

Good to know the basics once again. Thanks for giving us a good platfarm to learn the new things,and pointing to the Prabodamrutam pages about the Dharma artha kaama mokshalu section.

I had a doubt when ever  I read this chapter. These days what ever earnings made by any one stands for Dharma?
For example  i am taking the consideration of software engineers.

Generally a SW engineer get paid for a 8hr/day work, but i strongly feel that many of them wont work for the 8hrs for each day. There can be very few days where he works for morethan 8 hrs, but generally it will be only for a max of 6 hrs. the other two hours generally spent on browsing and  chating..etc.
but still all get paid for 8hrs.
In this context are the earnings bound to Dharma?

Quote
But, if we plan to stick on to our own, dearly held, half-baked opinions, further reading of this thread is entertainment at best, and a mere time waste at its worst. But reading ahead will atleast give us hope of change. So, I suggest we read ahead carefully.
Is this only for this thread?
I hope the statement holds good for the great books and speeches by MAHATMAs as well.

Looking forward for your next post

Regards,
Sateesh

OM SRI SAIRAM !



Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Priya on November 11, 2009, 11:48:05 AM
Jai Sai Master

Asterias garu,

From where can people in US order Master E.Ks speeches?

Jai Sai Master
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on November 11, 2009, 12:07:40 PM
Jai Sai Master !

I am not sure. A better idea would be to place the order through some of your relative/family friend in India and get it to USA.

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: vallibhuvan on November 11, 2009, 06:16:18 PM
Jai Sai Master!
                    I stay in US, but I am visiting Vizag for a month starting this sunday. I am also visiting Master's Samadhi in Ongole in the last week of November. Please let me know if I can get the speeches in any of these places.

Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on November 11, 2009, 07:26:15 PM
Jai Sai Master !

These are the details for ordering Master EK's speeches

Phone No. : 91-891-2748679, 91-9348003300
email: ekdweepam@yahoo.com

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Priya on November 11, 2009, 10:31:15 PM
Jai Sai Master

asterias garu,

Thank you very much. I will contact them.

Jai Sai Master
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on November 12, 2009, 08:27:43 PM
Jai Sai Master.

We would like to share our happiness with all Sai Bandhus. We have started last week with Paarayana of 'Sai Master Smrutulu' and read Sri Ananta Krishna gari words on Monday followed by Sri Punnaiah Sastry gari words till today. The conversations and experiences between Master garu and Sri Krishnamacharyulu garu and with others who had the fortune of being in Their presence brings immense happiness which can not be described in words. How They lived Their entire lives will remain as clear guide, clear map to us who gets lost every now and then even after coming to Their feet.

It is very touching and humbled to see just mention of 'Sri Kirshnamacharyulu garu' again here. We can only pray to Them to keep us at Their feet always.

Dear Satsang Team, starting another thread for 'Sri Kirshnamacharyulu garu' may give an opportunity for Sai Bandhus to share their valuable experiences with teachings of 'Sri Kirshnamacharyulu garu'. Please move our message also.

Jai Sai Master.
Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: soya on November 12, 2009, 09:57:28 PM
jai saimaster,   Uttam garu I saw you mentioning about punnaiah sastry garu .  Recently I saw Brahmasri Punnaiah sastry garu's speeches in Bhakti TV.  could you please confirm If you are talking about him.

what do they mean  by Brahmasri ?

                                             jai saimaster
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on November 12, 2009, 11:36:53 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Sowjanya garu,

We never watched Bhakti channel and never seen Sri Punnaiah Sasrty gari photo to say whether they are one and the same.

All we know about Sri Punnaiah Sastry garu is from the Book.

In brief, he lived in his Guru(Sri Krishnamacharyulu garu)'s home and met Master garu in 1960 for the first time.

Source: Sri SaiMaster Smrutulu

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 12, 2009, 11:49:19 PM
jai saimaster,   Uttam garu I saw you mentioning about punnaiah sastry garu .  Recently I saw Brahmasri Punnaiah sastry garu's speeches in Bhakti TV.  could you please confirm If you are talking about him.

what do they mean  by Brahmasri ?

                                             jai saimaster

Yes, he is the same. Brahmasri is just respectful. It is given to any one who explains upanishads and other scriptures.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: soya on November 13, 2009, 02:59:11 AM
jai sai master , Thankyou Babu garu for letting me know about the punnaiah sashtry garu.

 I truly liked his speech first time when I saw him on Bhakti tv channel.


                                                                                       jai sai master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: sai_prince on November 13, 2009, 07:10:55 PM
I am not trying to be detouring of sort, but I have a question, based on the what I have seen from this thread and other thread(s)...... and please consider my question as honest observation, with out direct criticism, as i have nothing to gain or lose either way.....

During a discussion, we refer to what others (or supposed greats have said), which sounds pretty correct thing to do  (and also to me) as we have to take someone/book as stand point.....

However, when the reference was made to someone else (to the other person--may be great) in a different thread, the posts were asked to be removed....
But, I see the forum tilted when someone else is mentioned, and even spreading that....... (again please understand I am not questioning the greatness of either of them, and more so, both are the same difficult to understand/comprehend jugglery for an illiterate like me).....

I can understand every organization, has a philosophy, and tries to strongly spread that philosophy..... But why does it stop philososphy of others, more so if its good (or percieved good)..... or if its wrong why dont an organisation be strong enough to criticize.... (just like in the video speech dwarakanath garu gave before launching the magazine, that he will not hesitate to criticize).....   

Again ask this with all due respect with regard to everyone 9mentioned and not mentioned on this forum).... and if not much, just trying to learn the policy of the forum, for my future posts...... Thanks in advance for any clarification.......
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 13, 2009, 11:55:40 PM
I am not trying to be detouring of sort, but I have a question, based on the what I have seen from this thread and other thread(s)...... and please consider my question as honest observation, with out direct criticism, as i have nothing to gain or lose either way.....

During a discussion, we refer to what others (or supposed greats have said), which sounds pretty correct thing to do  (and also to me) as we have to take someone/book as stand point.....

However, when the reference was made to someone else (to the other person--may be great) in a different thread, the posts were asked to be removed....
But, I see the forum tilted when someone else is mentioned, and even spreading that....... (again please understand I am not questioning the greatness of either of them, and more so, both are the same difficult to understand/comprehend jugglery for an illiterate like me).....

I can understand every organization, has a philosophy, and tries to strongly spread that philosophy..... But why does it stop philososphy of others, more so if its good (or percieved good)..... or if its wrong why dont an organisation be strong enough to criticize.... (just like in the video speech dwarakanath garu gave before launching the magazine, that he will not hesitate to criticize).....  

Again ask this with all due respect with regard to everyone 9mentioned and not mentioned on this forum).... and if not much, just trying to learn the policy of the forum, for my future posts...... Thanks in advance for any clarification.......

Jai Sai Master!!

Really, without needing a much detour, which I dont think is required, the answer is this.

The people who are accepted to be referred to on these forums are those who are explicitly hailed as greats by Master and/or Amma. Otherwise, if the forum starts accepting posts about 'great people' based on individual opinions of who is great and who is not, very easily, by just simple mathematics, lots of nonsense and fake gurus creep into here. So, you understand, i guess, by now, what is allowed in here and what is not. We dont pass value judgement (atleast on the forums) about any one's greatness. We just allow those, who are great for sure, based on what Master/Amma told. Period.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now..

Regarding Pillala pempakam. Here is an excerpt from Master E.K.'s speech. More excerpts will follow.

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Children education speech: By Master E.K.
All rights reserved to  Master E.K. Spiritual and Service Mission, VishakhaPatnam.
For further details : ekdweepam@yahoo.com
Phone : 91-891-2748679

Transcribed with the help of Arundhati Shasidhar.

     In my view this is the most important situation. More  imp than the spiritual tracks we are listening. And the various spiritual literature and the psychological literature we are listening. Because, problems of human society in any country, any nation, have three or four main causes and the most important of all is there is nobody to direct us how to bring up children. Until very recently, we have only an individual method. Every couple of parents have their own experiment with their children depending upon the state of the mind of the parents and we have commited great mistakes and great blunders till now. because we ourselves are products of such parents who also committed such blunders for previous few generations. They themselves didnt recieve proper education and they left children to chance and the institutions that are installed to educate children, they are also not healthy. They are either religion conditioned or political conditioned. They are not conditioned by human values.  and the result is, there is no proper understanding betn two generations. It is the fate of children for the past three generations. The parents are busy with their vocational and domestic work and their social gatherings and their ways of seeking pleasure and happiness and sometimes helpless in solving their own problems.

The children are away from the parents and when they come home, they have nothing with children except to consult them with their homework and eat and sleep fatigued. And when the children are sent to residential institutions, they have still less friendship with the parents and they are brought up like orphans having no father and mother. Once in everyweek they come to the parents sometimes and the result is that when they grow up, they are quite a different nation and away from the parents. So, we thought that we are systematizing the education of children in the present age. In trying to do so, we have enslaved and imprisoned the minds of children. When the child becomes a boy, he looks at the parents in a foriegn and different point of view. Because he has no identification, with what we call group consciousness. The teachers and the experts in the residential schools, they have no education or evolution enough to treat children as their own children. Because many of them are governed by commercial and business motives and they themselves are the products of such parents.

   And another thing is, we have the old people houses seperated from the younger generation. In all such families, there is no communication between three generations. A son knows the father very little, and the grandson doesnt know the grandfather at all sometimes. What we call 'consciousness of nation' is broken into pieces during the past hundred years. As the result of such a foolish experiment, we have only population in each country and no Nation. The concept of a nation is only intellectually understood and not understood in its true sense. Unless children have an opportunity to grow with the parent, and unless the parents mind is evolved enough to permit the children to grow with them and sacrifice some of their time in the valuable time of their children, remembering that we are all for the next generation, and it is very bad to victimize the next generation for our own immediate conviniences. So, this is the background which we should keep in mind, if we are at all very sincere to know anything about child upbringing and child education.

   We should be prepared for an aquarian type of change. That is, we should violently try to bring a change irrespective of how the present conditions exist. Otherwise, there will be no nation existing on the earth. When there is no national spirit, there cannot be an international spirit. There can only a spirit of competition and war and destruction. We have already expereinced two such wars because of changed generations of children in all countries.
   The human mind is specially constructed for a continuity of thought which is not there in any of the animals. The animals have the interests that humans have but the interests of one day are not carried to another day where as the humans have the continuity of thought which is used to mould life in affection and see that group consciousness is constructed and formed. For this the family is the only school that makes real education possible. So, in the age of aquarius definitely, if not today, after 10 or 15 or 20 years, there will be a total abandonment of the present education system and if we feel the need of the advanced humanity, we should try to excersize the change, by having what we call 'the family children schools'. For example, some families should make it their whole time profession, to have a little group of children from the other families along their own children and then educate the little group with all the spirit of family living in domestic way of living. Not understanding the school as something different from home.

Unless such a violent change occurs, we can give information to children, but not education. We can make their minds sharp, but we cannot make their intellect progressive and constructive. And the result of such faulty way of doing things is to develop a spirit of competition in the cihldren which grows with them as they grow into very sharp and great intellectuals, each an expert in an advanced branch of science and he believes only in conquering others and killing others. Because, what we teach him is a spirit of competition to get more marks in the school than the others and to get more prizes in the games. Such beastly instincts are taught to the children in the tender age when they are not in a possition to teach their children what is brotherhood. And when the spirit of family is not there, the human being has nothing to enjoy in life. He will be a slave in his profession instead of being a master, working in the offices like a prisoner or a captive. And at home, he finds nothing to enjoy except sex. But sex is only the minor enjoyment in human life and soon man gets into physcial and mental inadequacy of happiness. He doesnt know any source for real happiness. Because he does not know what companionship is. The wife and the husband find in each other only animals of sex but each cannot provide what is called companionship and brotherhood because they cannot understand each other in their hearts. The one has nothing to provide for the other and the result is great struggle and mental war between the husband and the wife after a certain age, most probably middle age. And in a way, there is no solution. So, the first thing we should try to bring in a change is that two families among 50 families should make it a fulltime occupation to bring up the children of the 50 families. Any how we have people who look after the children when the parents are going to office and we are having such people seperately and the school teachers seperately.  And we are having psychological advisors seperately. Why cant you have the three in one? That is what is meant by having a domestic school for children. Then it becomes a living work and not a dry intellectual professional career. The individual parents have much to do with their children at home. First of all they have to find time to devote to children. When they say the week-end holidays, we have a great craze for going to very long distances in the week end, spending much time and energy and petrol and very little time is left for us to enjoy. By the time we want to be free in the weekend holiday place, its already time to return and we have only a few hours there to stay. So, in every weekend, we are weakened with the trip and instead of doing it, if we spend the week ends with children, 4 or 5 or 6 or 10 families, gathering together and try to do the best to please the children and to teach the children in more spychological and practical way about human values and national values, about the affection between the parent and the child. Just it is enough if we are interested in children and it is enough if the child feels that we are interested in him. He begins to grow, not physically, but intellectually and spiritually. No more difficult methods are necessary. The first sign of growth in a child is to find that the others are interested in him. That gives him the seed of many virtues of human behaviour and he will be trained to think as one with the family and as a part of the family so that the whole family is a group or a soul consciousness. Each is the part of a group. That is my first correction about children upbringing. Since the past 15 years I have made many experiments in India, I find great results beyond my expectations. As far as my personal experience is considered, we 4 brothers, we are brought up by our parents like that. Our parents never left us and they never came in the way of our independence. We never felt that we are restricted or opposed by our parents. That is how we are brought up and that is how the brothers and sisters of my wife are brought up. The result is, during our 40 years of married life, we had no occassion to feel irritated about each other, and each feel only the necessity of the presence of the other and the companionship of each other. I am a father of 6 children which is commonly the case in India. No one of my children till now had any example of misbehavior with either the members of the family or the society and there was no occasion when we felt impatient of our children. All of them feel it a great joy to be with all the other members of the family and my sons are aged 30, 34, and about 24, like that. And all of them are only happy and nothing else till today.  So, that is my experience with such an experiment of what we call a home school.  my father started it as early as 1934 with me. He continued to conduct it with great success through out his life and he produced a generation of 300 children. Not that he gave birth to 300 children and now all the 300 children are maintaining the same type of schools for their children. That is 1 aspect of child upbringing. The second aspect is, we should believe in them, we should have confidence in them and we should  treat them as our equals. Because difference is there in age, need not bring difference in intelligence. There may be souls more mature than us in our children and grand children. We should remember it and we should know how to respect them. Discipline is required only to the mental and intellectual planes. And physical body for hygine. Discipline of physical body is required for hygene and health. But, beyond the intellectual level, no discipline is required because what is there inside a human being is already order and discipline. All the indiscipline exists only in the intellectual and mental planes. It is enough just if we set the intellectual plane right. And 1 secret I have found is, if we allow them to do some work, real education automatically takes place in them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I want to point out to readers that when Master E.K. says 'violent change', He doesnt mean a change through violence, but rather means, a drastic and radical and immediate and complete change.


Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 14, 2009, 12:12:38 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Continued..

    Remember, children always immitate elders in everything good or bad. We should have some work that is fit to be immitated by our children. It need not be something very high or technical. It may be arranging the house or the furniture or it may be preparing some parts of the house or doing something with the floor or the crockery and utensils. If something useful to the society is produced in the family, just as they do in japan, in every cottage and in every family, they produce something that is useful commercially to the world. For example, even 50 years ago, in japan, every house used to produce a loose part for an automobile. And the marketman could assemble the motor car in 1 day and sell it. Because of that, the japanese as a nation is trained in group work automatically.  It is not because of the great intellect they have but it is the constructive way of doing things and training the elements of the nation. That is another aspect.

       A 3rd aspect about children is , you take them with you to places of great interest whenever you go. Allowing them to play with the tv and the toys will not help them.  As many toys as we purchase for the children, we are throwing so many stones upon their intellectual growth. Their creative brain is killed by giving them prepared toys. Their mind begins to enjoy prepared things and forgets how to prepare things. So, you should stimulate the creative talent in the children. I will give 1 example. You know the name and some of the great works of rabindranath tagore. his father devendranath tagore, had 9 children and he was very very rich in those days. But he never allowed toys to be brought into his house for his children. He gave plaster to children and trained them to prepare models. For example, pictures, making a person sit and trying to draw his picture and then he gave colour pencis and paper. he allowed the children to spoil as many papers as necessary. And he used to train them in making a painting of what ever they see before them. He used to give scissors and colour papers to make cuttings and pastings to prepare beautiful pictures. Like that, he had many methods to train his children. He gave them some good music in the morning and evening. He never allowed the movies to be seen by them unless they belonged to a very high order of intellectual development. What happened after a certain age : the children refused to get attracted for the cheap things in the street. Each became an internationally great artist in his own line.  For example, rabindranath tagore, one of the sons, became an international seer, spiritualist and a literate. And he gave only some prayers, some music and some stories narrated to the children daily and he asked the children to narrate once again. The result is, each of them developed into a wonderful orator. Having great command over  knowledge and public. That is 1 example. And then he never made them read or write until they are 7 years of age. The result is, by 7 years of age, they have grown much, much in their cultural life. Then they picked up writing and reading very easily and they passed all the examinations of the college and the university more quickly than the other students. But still, they were not influenced by the ideas of education that are wrong. They remained as reformers of education. So, that is another example. It is not a story but what has happened. Similar experiments are being done in america also. There are advanced philosophers who are experts in bringing up children and all of them prefer only home schools for children. We feel it is inconvinient because we have to sacrifice our time for them. About problem children, it is highly
unpsychological to get irritated with them. If a child is disobedient or unpsychological or unsocial, we should be more kind and more social with them. Then they will be treated in a short time. If we feel irritated with them, that means we have much indiscipline and animal nature with in us. The children also get the same thing from us.  The more we get get irritated with them, the more they are going to fear. Fear is the seed of all crime. Any one who has no fear will have no criminal nature with in him. And the children begin to do things in secrecy when they fear. And they hide things and they get into kleptomaniac tendencies. They steal time from the parents to do something that they dont want the parents to know. So, that is the result of physical punishment which is not at all necessary for children. Because it is the mind that is to be tamed and not the body. What is the use of punishing the body to train the mind? It is only the animal nature of parents that makes us punish children. Our lack of discipline and too much of emotions make us punish children.  It should be a joy for the child to wish to be with the family. And professions can be developed even from the home circle. And we can ignore the academic qualifications of the universities also, if they do not fit into the requirements of the children.

-----------------------------------------------------

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 14, 2009, 02:55:34 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Continued..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made that experiment also completely. And I am a wonderful succes in it. I never sent my children to any college, school or university. And I got them trained in the type of work they wanted to.
   One fellow got interested in languages and he could study the languages and the scriptures as much as he could. Then after becoming an adult he went to the university and he is post-graduated and he become a doctorate. And still, he got interested in the printing technology. He wanted his own little printing press and he developed it and he made his coleagues as co-workers in his printing press and they could make a profession of their own. After developing the printing press very well, they gave the press to one group of young people and started another press seperately. Like that, there are 3 printing presses that are developed in our place by our groups of young people. And at a new place, they have purchased a big new printing press, a 4th one. Like that, each  group has selected the type of work he wants and got himself trained in the work. Started their own institution of that branch.  And now, they cater to the society better than the commercial organizations and they are living with independent livelihood and earning in independent economy in livelyhood. After that, the government or the state need not feel to pay them something or any organizations to get them employed. They can give employment to others. They need not seek employment from others. Because the main principle from childhood is to get trained in something which is really useful to the society. That is the fundamental principle. These are my experiences with the basic ideas of child training. If you add a little of yoga science in their daily life, if you make them a habbit of meditation 5 mins in the morning and 5 mins in the evening, that will complete the necessities of child education. And when they grow up and go into the world, their presence will influence others. They are never influenced by any other presence and always their presence can be only practical, progressive and possitive. This is what I want to suggest to you.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Priya on November 14, 2009, 04:37:45 AM
Jai Sai Master

Babu garu!

Thank you very much for posting the great speech by Master EK garu.
 
This will make a big positive change in our families.
When EK garu mentioned about Rabindranath Tagore , I just flew away with joy because I like Tagor since I am 9 or 10 years old.
 
At that age, I used to read about Tagore and I always used to think about him and his poetry.  After a long break, When I was carrying my son I got a craving to read about Tagore.
 
Thanks babu garu.

Just saying thanks to you is not enough. We need to up bring our children in a proper way and make them useful to the society. I know that that is what you want from us more than a Thank you. 

Jai Sai Master
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on November 14, 2009, 06:16:08 AM
Jai Sai Master.

Very inspiring. Thank you very much Babu garu.

Jai Sai Master.

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: vasu on November 14, 2009, 12:43:10 PM
Jai Sai Master!
Really a nice article. May the force of Master be with all of us. May we get a chance to implement a bit of what Master wanted the world to.

Thanks for the post babu garu.

Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: sai_prince on November 14, 2009, 02:49:12 PM
Great posts!!! and regarding


Really, without needing a much detour, which I dont think is required, the answer is this.

The people who are accepted to be referred to on these forums are those who are explicitly hailed as greats by Master and/or Amma. Otherwise, if the forum starts accepting posts about 'great people' based on individual opinions of who is great and who is not, very easily, by just simple mathematics, lots of nonsense and fake gurus creep into here. So, you understand, i guess, by now, what is allowed in here and what is not. We dont pass value judgement (atleast on the forums) about any one's greatness. We just allow those, who are great for sure, based on what Master/Amma told. Period.


I didnot know who master EK is, and I just came to know that he is your Father's brother.....
Sorry again in that regard....
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 14, 2009, 08:06:00 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Not just my father's brother, but a Great Man in His own right!! One of the few 'teachers par excellence' that mother earth has ever witnessed.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: sandy on November 14, 2009, 10:18:36 PM
hi all,

my mother was a working woman and i am glad that she was one. my family wud hv been fine if she were not working but still she was working. in my opinion, job is kind of a security. i dont mean to say that women who dont work are nt worthy, however, i am all for working moms.

thank u,
sandy
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Ananth on November 15, 2009, 02:16:47 PM
Jai Sai Master, Babu garu!
Jai Sai Master, Sai Bandhus..

Babu garu, thank you very much for bringing to us the lessons of life. Dear forum members, thank you very much for starting the thread which culminated into a wonderful lesson. My personal view is, we can never ever repay the debt to THIS DIVINE FAMILY who brought the Vedic knowledge to each and every human being. May we shine more and more in the light of SAIMASTER!!

JAI SAI MASTER!
JAI SAI MASTER!
JAI SAI MASTER!

Best Regards,
Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: chakri on November 16, 2009, 09:25:34 PM
Jai Sai Master,

Dwarakanath garu, Thank you very much for taking effort from your busy schedule and posting this valuable speech. We are learning lot of new things through your guidance. I pray to master garu and amma garu to be with us and help implement these teachings.

Jai Sai Master
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 18, 2009, 02:47:59 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Sorry for the delay in posting further material and progressing the discussion. My health suffered badly for the past 4 days (out of no reason) and I couldnt do much at all than sleep. I will post some stuff from Gandhi, some from Aurobindo Yogi, some from Master Himself regarding kids before we go ahead into a full discussion. Their words are better than mine, always!

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 18, 2009, 03:03:32 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Some discussion about security and about giving it to children by Master from Sai Baba and His Teachings,

http://www.divyajanani.org/saibharadwaja/books/ReadBook.asp?PNo=ST0075

uptill here :

http://www.divyajanani.org/saibharadwaja/books/ReadBook.asp?PNo=ST0080

The discussion might not seem directly towards kids, but helps us understand a lot about how we should look at things.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 20, 2009, 02:39:04 PM
Jai Sai Master!

I wanted to post some more references, but it looks like its going to take time. Lets get on with discussion now.. Swarupgaru, go ahead with you questions please!

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on November 20, 2009, 11:32:21 PM
Well, me too.... give me some more time Dwarakanath garu, because initially thought of certain topics to bring, essential when we had discussion, what is meaning of marriage, what constitutes/definition 'true marriage', what constitutes feminism (or synonyms there of), child labour, atrocities (there-of) based mainly on statistical figures which come from the society etc. etc..... especially when I was talikng about optimism with present day reality, and social changes......

But the topics I thought are highly controversial (publicly/politically debated issues) and needs very mature and open minded discussion.... also let me think more for the clarity and sublity of the issues.....

of course I am not delaying because of controversial nature, as those are very important for the society, and I dont mind taking firm stance.....
Let me think more, and still waiting for the definition of marriage to start with ;)

Om sai ram
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 21, 2009, 08:46:16 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Well, regarding 'definition' of marriage, i too am not very clear, apart from the fact that my concept of marriage is a utilitarian one, utility being spirituality rather than mere biological, psychological or social satiation of desires and pacification of insecurities. I see it, ideally, to be an institution for making better humanity, both of the present generation and of the future.

I do take note of the shortcomings of people like me (most of us), and do understand the pitfalls one might fall into, even in the relationship of marriage. However, I am also convinced of the disparity between the ideal marriage and the practical one (i mean, the one that is being practiced), and so, just like in everything else, i dont give the practical concept the same level as the ideal, and so, I keep saying (to myself and others) that just like so many other fields of human existence, marriage is also being diluted down by the shortcomings and hence, it cannot be taken as the Divine incident it is supposed to be.

I have never formulated a single line or double line 'definition' of marriage, but as a concept, ive been thinking about it a lot. Rather than customs of any particular age or religion to take precedence, i take spiritual upliftment as the basis for my idea of an 'ideal' marriage, wherein both the parties involved are together for the sake of better spiritual lifestyle and for building up of a better humanity.

Will write more on this shortly.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 21, 2009, 11:49:35 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Gandhi on kids and education - from Young India Magazine, His Autobiography and Harijan Magazine.. From the book .. India of my dreams - by diamond books www.dpb.in

Children:

Children inherit qualities of their parents no less than their physical features. Env. does play an important part but the original capital on which a child starts life is inherited from its ancestors. I have always seen children successfully surmounting the effects of evil inheritance. That is due to purity being an inherent attribute of the soul. The real property that a parent can transmit to all equally is his or her character and educational facilities. Parents should seek to make their sons and daughters self reliant, well able to earn an honest livelihood by the sweat of the brow. I believe implicitly, that the child is not born mischievious in the bad sense of the term. If parents would behave themselves whilst the child is growing before its born and after it is as well known fact, that the child will instinctively obey the law of truth and the law of love and believe me, from my experience of hundreds, I was going to say thousands of children, I know that they have perhaps a finer sense of honor  that you or I have. The greatest lessons of life, if we would but stoop and humble ourselves, we would learn not from grownup learned men, but from so called ignorant children.
   Jesus never uttered a loftier or a grander truth than when He said that wisdom cometh out of the mouth of the babes. I believe it. I have noticed it in my own experience, that if we would approach babes with humility and innocence, we would learn wisdom from them. I have learnt this one lesson that what is impossible with the man is childs play with God and if we have faith in that divinity which presides on the destiny of the meanest of His Creation, I have no doubt that all things are possible and in that final hope, I believe and pass my time and endeavour to obey his will.
   If we are to reach real peace in the world, and if we are to carry on a real war against war, we shall have to begin with children and if they will grow up in their natural innocence, we wont have to struggle, we wont have to pass fruitless idle resolutions but we shall go from love to love and peace to peace until atlast all the cardinals of the world are covered with that peace and love for which consciously or unconsciously, the whole world is hungering.

The new education :

What ever may be true of other countries, in INdia, at any rate, with more than 80 percent of the population is agriculture and another 10 percent is industrial, it is a crime to make the education merely literary and to unfit boys and girls for manual work in after-life. Indeed, I hold that as the larger part of our time is devoted to labour for earning our bread, our children must, from their infancy, be taught the dignity of such labour. Our children should not be so taught as to dispice labour. There is no reason why a peaseant's son, after having gone to school, should become useless, as he does become, as an agriculture laborour. It is as sad thing that our school boys look upon manual labour with disfavour, if not contempt. In my opinion, intellegent labour is for the time being, the only primary and adult education in this land of starving millions. Literary education should follow the education of hand, the one gift that visibly distinguishes man from beast. It is a superstition to think that the fullest development of man is impossible without a knowledge of art of reading and writing. That knowledge undoubtedly adds grace to life, but it is no way indsipencible for man's moral, physical or material growth. I hold that true education of the intellect can only come through a proper excersize and training of the bodily organs. eg. hands, feet, eyes, ears, nose,etc..

In other words, an intelligent use of the bodily organs in a child provides the best and quickest way of developing his intellect. But unless the development of the mind and body go hand in hand with a corresponding awakening of the soul, the former alone would prove to be a poor lopsided affair. By spiritual training I mean education of the heart. A proper and all round development of the mind, therefore, can take place only when it preceeds, pari pasu, with the education of the physical and spiritual faculties of the child. They constitute an indivisible whole. According to this theory, therefore, it would be a gross fallacy to suppose that they can be developed piecemeal or independently of one another. The baneful effects of abscence of proper coordination and harmony among the various faculties of the body, mind and soul, respectively, are obvious. They are all around us. Only we have lost perception of them owing to our present perverse associations. Man is neither mere intellect, nor the gross animal body, nor the heart or soul alone. A proper and harmonious combination of all the three is required for the making of the whole man and constitute the true economics of education. By education, I mean, an allround drawing-out of the best in child and man, body, mind and spirit.
   Literacy is neither the end of education nor even the beginning. It is only one of the means whereby man and woman can be educated. Literacy itself is no education. I would therefore begin with the child's education by teaching it a usefull handicraft and enabling it to produce from the moment it begins its training. I hold that the highest development of the mind and the soul is possible under such a system of education. Only every handicraft has to be taught not merely mechanically, as is done today, but scientifically, the child should know the why and the wherefore of every process. In my scheme of things, the hand will handle tools before it draws or traces the writing. The eyes will read the pictures of letters and words as they will know other things in life, the ears will catch the names and meanings of things and sentences. The whole training will be natural, responsive and therefore the quickest and the cheapest in the world. Manual work will have to be the very center of the whole thing. The manual training will not consist in producing articles for a school mueseum or toys which have no value. It should produce marketable articles. The children will not do this as children used to do under the whip in the early days of the factories. They will do it because it entertains them and stimulates their intellect.
   I am a firm believer in the principle of free and compulsory primary education for India. I also hold that we shall realize this only by teaching the children a useful vocation and utilizing it as a means for cultivating their mental, physical and spiritual faculties. It will check the progressive decay of our villages and lay the foundations of a juster social order in which there is no unnatural division between the haves and the havenots and everybody is assured of a living wage and the rights to freedom. My plan to impart primary education through the medium of village handicrafts like spinning and carding, etc. is thus concieved as the spear-head of a silent social revolution fraught with the most far reaching consequences. It will provide a healthy and moral basis of relationship between the city and the village and thus go a long way towards eradicating some of the worst evils of the present social insecurity and poisoned relationship between the classes.

Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on November 22, 2009, 07:51:21 AM
mmmm..... personally, i dont agree with all those criticisms about present educational system. I dont say its perfect, but I find more flaws with the suggested alternatives, The only problem (as I hear about India and not US), is corporatization of education, not the curriculum, atleast the US curriculum as I see I am pretty convinced about the way its executed, more so no child is left behind and money usually is not a problem, as public schooling is free ..............

I will write more soon.

Om sai ram
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on November 22, 2009, 12:12:21 PM
Jai Sai Master !

Lets ponder on this deeply:

Need for education-

Why is there the system of education ? Why does anybody need education ? Is not everybody "educated" - out of the box ?

From our own practical experiences, we know that everybody is not same, not even born same. We see that even as babies, all are different - some cry loudly, some dont cry much, some seem irritable, others seem relaxed etc etc. So we can come to a safe conclusion that everyone isnt born same.

Mind you, inspite of not being born same, we cant say at this stage as to who is going to "succeed" in life (Lets not get into the discussion on def. of success at this point). Each is with his/her own strengths and weaknesses and usually no strength can be greater than any other strength and no weakness can be greater than any other weakness. In my opinion it all matters on how one uses his strengths and weaknesses.

But very few have the ability to even understand what is correct and what is wrong and hence the ability to "correctly" use strength and weakness is a big problem in itself ! Isnt that so ?

So what any education should in essence do is to teach the kid what is wrong and what is right. How and why something is called wrong and something is called right. What is the importance of following correct and the danger in following bad. The education should be in such a way that it teaches the kids to "succeed". So the education should teach the kid to be able to realize the goal of life - because that is the success that is exemplified in the lifes of real teachers - GURU - SADGURU, i.e. Mahatmas.

This is the basis for education.

However any form of practical education also has to take into consideration that "education" is a continous process. Its not something that gets over in a fixed amount of time. Moreover, people also cant understand the utility of being correct nor can their weaknesses go away in one shot.

Thus, till the person attains the goal of the life, till that time of time, he/she feels certain things as necessities - instincts. Hence the education should also solve the problem of food, shelter etc. In other words, education should be such that it not only shows the means of getting these things, but also tries to do in a way, that makes the person remain in the path to the goal and not overstep others.

So the role of education is to lead the person towards the goal (as prescribed by Mahatmas), while taking into consideration the immediate needs and necessities (as percieved by the person) . And providing a way and means by which these things needs and necessities are satiated in a way that person doesnt lose sight of the goal.

The deeper we think about the goal that is prescribed by Mahatmas, the more we understand our role in the society and our responisbility/duty towards it.

Therefore while solving the basic needs of a person, education should do so in a way that it helpful for the society also ( society includes the individual so it turns out to be holistically beneficial for the person)

For individual development, education should take care of both physical and mental aspects of an individual. Such individual development is essential for the "growth" of a person. It removes physical and mental weaknesses to degree (ex physical and mental laziness) so that there is a firm foundation for the betterment of an individual.

Such a basic level of education is required initially for the person to start getting a better feel of group (society). In the next stage, this person will make choices that better the society instead of being selfish. Thus based on the conditions existing at that point of time in the society, the individual makes personal choices, which benefit the society.

As I pointed out earlier, since he is also the society, the choices, also help in his personal development. This loop keeps getting better and better in such a way that the person is drawn towards the goal. And finally, by grace of God, he attains the GOAL.

Current State of Education -

Today what is the purpose of education ?

Why do people send their kids to school today ?

Is there such a analysis involved ? or any analysis for that matter ?

Think of what is happening today. A good education is that education, which seems to assure a good career. A good career ensures better "security" and these two enable a good match for marriage. And the STORY continues ... .... ....

But inspite of this, how many are really successful in this ? Forget this, tell me one person who seriously believes that the system helped him get better or be successful or that society helped him being something. Its all reverse. Most of the materialistically successful people owe their success by being "out of box", by makign radical - uneducational decisions. I am not trying to hype the matter.

There are sure a few successful people but are they in the same range as Newton ? Or Edison ? Or Picaso ? Or Michealangelo ?

Even when there seem to be a few successful here and there, they seem to have bucked the trend rather than follow the trend. Most of the followers - like the present cult of IT graduates - face recession. There is no formula for success in such an education.

I studied Electronics - and am I continuing in that field ?  NO ! And there are probably 50% of all graduates who dont do what they spent their 4-5 years of education on. So in a sense, education is leaving me stranded, because no one can tell me what is that I should read so that that 5 years down the line I get my career, wife , etc etc ..

But enough of harping on teh same tune. Lets think of it in a different way altogether.

While most expect their kids to be honest, hardworking, sincere, following morals, ethics etc - how many schools really teach it ?
And would we as parents be happy if there our kid is honest, hardworking, sincere , following morals, ethics etc and last ranker in school, getting beatings for talking in class (everyone talks - the "intelligent" ones escape!) ?

What I think , we indirectly do is breed competion and winning (at all costs) irrespective of any other reason. There are parents who dont mind their sons being immoral if they are getting good marks.

So have we lost the plot somewhere. ? Everyone wants to be successful, but does the current education provide for that ?

There is a movie called "Test" or something like that which talks about a group of students hacking into ETS to get GRE questions or something like that. A student makes a very good statement there - "They keep on telling us that each kid is special and that there is no failure but at the end of all the education, they make us all write GRE". See how ironical. If each kid is special, and each kid is best at something, what s the poitn of a "STANDARDIZED TEST" Strange huh! I am not against tests, but against he mode and the aims of these tests.

In short this is what I feel regarding the current system of education:

1. Lack of holistic development. Kids being forced to learn what is being taught rather than education being creatively engaging and intellectually stimulating.

2. Lack of focus on sports and exercises. (May be this is better in US)

3. Kids not being talked how to lead life well, but only how to score well. No importance given to society. Each for himself concept enforced.

4. Societal awareness and moral betterment not taught or not taught as the primary reasons for education.

5. Parents attitude and teachers attitude - seem to have been "corporatised"

Jai Sai Master !

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 22, 2009, 12:57:38 PM
mmmm..... personally, i dont agree with all those criticisms about present educational system. I dont say its perfect, but I find more flaws with the suggested alternatives, The only problem (as I hear about India and not US), is corporatization of education, not the curriculum, atleast the US curriculum as I see I am pretty convinced about the way its executed, more so no child is left behind and money usually is not a problem, as public schooling is free ..............

I will write more soon.

Om sai ram

Jai Sai Master!

Well, I personally have a lot lot lot many problems with current education system in India. So much so, that I am actually putting my head on the line to get kids out of schools and into home schooling. As of now, I am to teach them since the parents are not yet catching up with taking up the responsiblity, but I am much more happy that i've been able to take 6 kids out of school as of today. I hope i could do more. Apart from what Sai said, I am much more concerned with schools than with colleges. But that doesnt mean that I am particularly happy about colleges. I see the current schooling system as the root of most of the miseries of the people of India.
I came to that conclusion after thinking for almost 13 years of discussions and thinking, and from personal experiences of me and my friends. I was infact surprised to see Master's sayings and writings regarding that matter agreeing and reinforcing my own thought process. Infact, He blankly told Mr. G.V.Rao "If you want to make your kids good, get them out of schools"! I came to know all this this year itself. Before, my only point of reference were Ananthacharya and Vivekananda (inferences from Vivekananda's speeches and letters). Later, I came across J.K. who's ideas matched mine quite closely (albeit certain minute differences) and then I came across Master's ideas of it. And now, I am much more confident of it and see it as one of my responsiblities to make it better for kids as far as I can. Infact, for me, that mission of making things better for kids and thus making it better for the world, ranks as high, if not higher, than doing pracharam. I will state my ideas as the discussion continues. I think Ananth heard about some of them when he came to ongole.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Ananth on November 22, 2009, 05:56:57 PM
Jai Sai Master, Babu garu..
Jai Sai Master, Sai Bandhus..

Babu garu, I kept thinking about the new ideas that you put forth regarding the children's education and I must say those 6 or 7 kids who are out and under your care are lucky.

Swarup garu, Jai Sai Master!!

I am not just saying this out of some devotion to Master garu or because I read His books or I am devoted to Babu garu. I have been in the same boat in terms of thinking about the real need of education in India. India has clearly lost the plot in terms of real education. Kids have been sacrificed in millions in terms of unbelievable expectations on them, the expectation & aspirations that the kids's parents could not achieve. Totally and stupidly unrealistic.

Swarup garu, having been living in north america for the last 10 years, I should say, kindergarten through 5th or maximum 6th class, there is a close resemblance to what Master garu told about Kids' education. Perhaps, you will call me miserly but I would attribute a mere 10% resemblance. But as the kids go higher in their classes, the same old competition stems up. I am not saying competition is bad. But the approach to it is bad. Kids (teenagers and beyond) act cruelly against one another both in the name of education and in the name of personal development. Right from their teenage years, they are taught to cut the throats (literally speaking...) of others to come up and I have personally seen great many tragedies in the western countries.

If you ask me, whether I can guarantee you about the new (well it's actually old..but for our sake, let's make it as new...)educational system that Babu garu is discussing about, I cannot. But at the slightest chance that I could have, if in the near future I am going to India to settle down, I will place my kids in the hands of Babu garu with utmost confidence. It is not the confidence that stemmed out of blindness. Just go back mentally to your schooling and try to imagine how you could fare with this type of education. Can you kids do the same way? Well, they might cry or they might reject. But it's worth a try. Didn't we cry when we were shoved around into our school??

Babu garu, I am eagerly waiting for your input on how each and every one of us, as a parent can take care of the kids in terms of their education. Can we do a similar kind of approach here in western countries too?

Best regards to all,
Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Swayam on November 22, 2009, 07:21:06 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Babu garu,

Iam curious to know how these kids are engaged.How their typical day will be ?
What are the activities they do ? If possible some of them I want to follow for my own
kid atleast during weekend.

Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on November 22, 2009, 09:39:09 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Interesting points. Looks forward to the further discussion.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Swayam on November 22, 2009, 09:56:36 PM


If you ask me, whether I can guarantee you about the new (well it's actually old..but for our sake, let's make it as new...)educational system that Babu garu is discussing about, I cannot. But at the slightest chance that I could have, if in the near future I am going to India to settle down, I will place my kids in the hands of Babu garu with utmost confidence. It is not the confidence that stemmed out of blindness. Just go back mentally to your schooling and try to imagine how you could fare with this type of education. Can you kids do the same way? Well, they might cry or they might reject. But it's worth a try. Didn't we cry when we were shoved around into our school??


Jai Sai Master!

Ananth garu,

Presuming that the method of teaching which Babugaru will be following will be same as that of
what EK garu mentioned in his speech(what Rabindranath Tagore's father followed for his kids, what Master gari father followed for his kids, what EK garu himself followed for his kids), it should be a success.
Only thing is we should build confidence from above examples.Easier said than done for the reason that
For generations together we have been hardcoded/moulded to take a particular route.To take new path there will be lot of inertia/fear.May Master garu guide us all.

Jai SAi MAster!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on November 22, 2009, 11:40:37 PM
Kids (teenagers and beyond) act cruelly against one another both in the name of education and in the name of personal development. Right from their teenage years, they are taught to cut the throats (literally speaking...) of others to come up and I have personally seen great many tragedies in the western countries.


Ananth garu, Actually, this is the only and rather major problem I have with US education, and I agree with you completely. Untill primary and middle school the kind of education imparted is really amazing. I know how kids are tested even without their knowledge in the schools.  But at teenage years, the curriculum and practice is excellent. But kids scare me. And I dont know where to start with the problem. Changing school is not complete solution. The world is cut-throat, and they have to cope up with it. But for such young age its too much. More than competition, which I think is imparted and handled relatively better in this age compared to mine in India. I am more worried about the behaviour aspect, which I cannot find an alternative.....

I dont know what is "JK concept/philosophy", (BTW, what is JK) if its rishi valley school? I have some reservations on it, and even heard if kids doing drugs there (again disclaimer, I am not sure about it). And for all practical perspective I cannot think of an alternative, balancing the introduction to real world vs / and gurading them. But home schooling, again I am completely not sure, that I would do it with my kids. In fact home schooling in there in US too, where in some conservative catholics get together under church and train the kids. and by enlarge I am not a strong supporter of that kind of education....

I am following the discussion and I will write more.......

Om sai ram

P.S: also along the same lines, can anyone who are sending their kids to an International or concept school(s) share their honest opinion, as I heard a lot abot them (good and bad)

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 23, 2009, 12:50:18 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Swayamgaru,

As of now, as far as the kids that are with me are concerned, no particular routine is followed for the kids here. They are not staying with me. Their parents are all in neighbourhood. They are aged 9,10,11 yrs old and 14 and 15 yrs old. There is one who is 7 yrs old. They already studied in the schools before this year. I got them out in jan of this year. Till june, i just allowed them to play, just making them learn bhajans, etc. From july on, i had them study for 2/3 hrs a day on maths (basic arithmatic, but the vedic method) and reading 'black beauty'. The rest of the time, they are allowed to play. One thing I noticed is that their personalities changed over the months so much! Their curiosity came back (which i saw was appallingly lacking when they were going to school) and they are looking healthy. Kids who used to complain of stomach aches to go to school (and who used to get fevers quite regularly) are now very healthy. Their dread of books and teachers is disappearing fast and they are becoming more and more 'human' day by day. I intend to let them play till march 2010 most of the time. Right now we are looking to install a classical (kuchipudi) dance teacher, a music teacher and have started 'Bharatiya balasiksha' (telugu) a couple of days ago. Planning to make them read 'Wisdom Tales' by Master E.K. The time is being utilized to train the parents on how to engage the kids and how to keep the best home atmosphere. Along with the above, now and then, the kids are made to do some work, like cooking, with Amma guiding them personally. She made them plant vegetables and we are planning to teach them basics of agriculture. I am also contemplating starting kungfu or tai chi. I initially wanted to teach them personally, but im not finding time as of now, for that. Although I interact with them, its not 'study' purpose, but 'learning purpose' interaction. I am talking to them about cultural values and just guiding them here and there and keeping their interest levels high.

Once we look at the above, it really looks like the kids are lacking in the so called 'academics', they are growing beautifully like 'people'. The first thing I require for any kid to be with me or this group that i build is that they should absolutely stop watching either movies or tv. When they catch some fever (which didnt happen till now, except for one girl who caught jaundice) and have to stay at home, i allow them some nat geo tv. but other than that, tv is a no no. I dont allow kids who watch tv to interact with this group at this stage. The parents should also abstain from it, or if they need to do it, they can do it privately without making the kid attracted to tv. No topic regarding politics, nor tv, nor movies is allowed to spill around kids. On their birthdays, the kids go to the orphanage here an distribute sweets there. One thing I noticed is that the kids cried when they understood what 'orphans' means. That is real development if you ask me. They celebrate their birthdays with puja in the evening and cutting the cake in the presence of Amma.

There is a reason and method behind this 'madness' if you ask me. I see atrocities (yes you read right) happening in schools. I simply dont understand why 'educated' (mostly literate only it seems) adults and biologists and child psychologists sit and watch such freakish ideas happening in the name of 'schools'. For example, human body in the early childhood needs excersize and play. It is a well known (atleast i think science knows it by now, after reading some of the latest books on psychology and physiology) fact. But what the bloody, stupid, ignorant, inhuman cages called 'schools' are doing is this. The teacher comes. Teaches mostly boring stuff (what can be more boring to a little kid than repeating multiplication tables over and over again?) which the kid doesnt even understand why it is being told to do. And that is done for 8 (or more) hours a day, where the kid is not allowed to speak to friends (curbing and causing speech impediments, not physical but psychological), sit on those horrible benches for long hours without changes in position (the spine gets so much weakened that most of the kids end up being useless for Yoga), taught to fear and repulse books (because they are made to read so much under compulsion while they themselves arent happy to do), punished by getting beaten up. All this for what? Do you remember your school days? How much of the stuff we learnt in those 8 hours sticks? Most of the kids learn to ignore the teacher and get lost in their own thoughts while ACTING as if they are listening (otherwise, if the teachers are any little bit efficient, the kids need not cram nonsense before exams after 'learning' stuff for 8 hrs a day all through the year). And, from 10 yrs on (or even younger), what do you think the kids talk in school?? Dont you remember? (or were you in such great company that you didnt listen really bad stuff?) I remember my friends starting to talk about girls around age 10 (heck, i even wrote a love letter for a friend when I was 11 yrs old, since i had a gift for poetry and language that fellow asked me to do so). Do you know this generation? Kids of class 5 having love letters given around on valentines day!! What a pity! while my country is starving and impoverished, the kids are not shown any of that! Instead, by movies and nonsense, they are being given such appalling ideas, that they nation seems to be dying!! And movies. And songs from movies with horrible lyrics. And total disrespect (only appearing respectful out of fear) towards teachers and studies.
And even after that, by the time the kid is 16 or 18, what can the kid do? Nothing!!! Nothing productive! With all the energy of youth and the flamboyance, if at all such tendencies linger, at 16 or 18, what good is a person to his family or his country?? Nope. He is just a kid who has to sit around cramming for some bizzare entrance exam. Still without any useful lessons of living, without any development of the moral or spiritual or physical characteristics, the young blood is being wasted on class room benches. Look at the text books that are given to the student till that age. Does the matter in the text books look like it takes 12 or 14 years of learning? No. Kids read it in 4 or 5 years any way. (They only read before the exams. The rest of the days are mostly wasted, except, may be in the maths class). And what is the result? The average highschool graduate has no idea of what he has learnt! He has crammed what ever is required for the exams. Only a very elite few even understand what they are being taught. And the rest?? They end up morally, physically and spiritually impared, and are left to the mediocre (by the standards set by the system) degrees in terms of academics.
The future of my country is being so worthlessly wasted, and im not a person who sits and enjoys. I cannot stand it!! Its utterly inhuman in my view.

You know, the education system right now, atleast for me, is so terrible, that the bandwidth of this entire site is not enough if I start ranting. Arts. ARTS!! What happened to those!! Culture.. Where is it?  And these christian missionary schools.. oh god!! Their uniforms, their culture.. oh my GOD!!! If any one wants to read more of my rantings, let me know.. ill be happy to oblige.. ;) :p

Cant write anymore as of now.. will write more, in a much more constructive way, as we move forward. Just ignore this post to follow the ideas in a logical flow.

Swarupgaru,

Its alright if you dont see many problems or you disagree. I dont mind. But if an educated person like you comes to a stage where you feel responsible towards next generation and can see the immense role you can play in the betterment of humanity, which ever ideas you find appealing doesnt matter as long as you work on those ideas. You dont agree with my ideas, its alright. But, what ever you think is right, if you happen to contribute as much as you can, i would be most glad.

Regarding JK, yes, Jiddu Krishnamurti. Read his books 'on education' and 'why should we study' and 'letters to the teachers'. Dont look at rishi valley. Even JK was disappointed with that. He intended something, but the management made something else out of it. Listen to his talks with Kids on youtube. I will throw in some vids in my next post.

Jai Sai Master!!

P.S. Can any of the admins look at the above post and correct sentence formations and spellings?? my internet connection is so darn lagging that im unsure if i can repost this.. Can someone else do that for me please?
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on November 23, 2009, 01:08:11 AM
Dear Dwarakanath garu and other sai bandhus,
No No No not that I disagree on anything, infact I am not clear myself, But mainly with home schooling, what I said, is based on what I saw, in a totally different setting......
My teaching skills are mainly with college / undergraduate(bacheolors) kids, and usually I get to interact with kids (high school)who are already motivated and planned to towards particular goal.... So I cannot talk about a random population  sample.....
All sai bandhus,
Just as a hypothetical school, what would you plan for your teenager kids..... compared with the ground reality compared with your school/place, which ever place it is....... Just share your thoughts or recoomendations.......

Om sai ram

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 23, 2009, 01:20:39 AM
Jai Sai Master!!

The Vedantin speaks...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSqzkGyxpmc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FY4ItG3zec


Full ebook :

http://www.fullbooks.com/Education-as-Service.html

A paper :

http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-krish.htm
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 23, 2009, 01:52:43 AM
Jai Sai Master!!

TED talks.. some of them I liked..

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/liz_coleman_s_call_to_reinvent_liberal_arts_education.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/gever_tulley_s_tinkering_school_in_action.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/gever_tulley_on_5_dangerous_things_for_kids.html

I loved this one particularly.. It is very close to some of my ideas..:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 23, 2009, 01:56:37 AM
Jai Sai Master!

One additional request to the forum members.. if any one can arrange for a webinar (search for what it is.. its a video chat kind of a thing..), I would love to speak on this topic. Its much easier and better to talk directly, face to face, on this sensitive and important topic.. Ofcourse, I will write about it here, but if we speak, its much much more helpful. If someone helps in setting something up with as many members as possible.. (the webinars can be recorded and played as a link to that website, for eg.. flashmeeting.com is one.. but there are others..) that would be wonderful.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 23, 2009, 02:02:22 AM
Jai Sai Master!

My most favourite speech of all by J.K. that ive heard... This one is for humanity.. not just in light of education, but most essential to understand the situation so that we can properly think of all aspects of life, including education..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSm-pxiPTXg

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaimasterDevotee on November 23, 2009, 07:39:54 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Dwarakanath garu,

tell me what to do about this webinar...should i buy a separate software for this....I dont know how to do...sure can able to do with your guidelines... actually that's a good plan, where you can easily share your views about.....what do you say swarup garu...i think it will make both of your job easy..


jai Sai Master!


Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on November 23, 2009, 08:08:01 AM
Jai Sai Master !

Dear Lalithagaru!

Just like seminars which we have in college, "web"inar is an online seminar. In seminar the lecturer and the students face each other physically, in a webinar that participants are in front of their webcam. Usually the person who is conducting the webinar, i.e. the "lecturer" is visible to everybody. In case some one wants to ask a question, that person becomes visible to other.

Also text chat facilities are available. There are a few free options available on the internet - check out ustream.tv

Check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_conferencing#Software_and_service_providers

Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaimasterDevotee on November 23, 2009, 10:35:42 AM
Jai Sai Master!

My most favourite speech of all by J.K. that ive heard... This one is for humanity.. not just in light of education, but most essential to understand the situation so that we can properly think of all aspects of life, including education..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSm-pxiPTXg

Jai Sai Master!!

Jai Sai Master!

Very very nice speech.....very lucid yet profound.....
Thanks a lot.

Jai Sai Master!

 
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on November 23, 2009, 07:41:25 PM
Webinar is a great method, it should be fairly easy to use. Almost everyone can take part, even if you dont have speakers or webcam, you can type in the questions, and hear the conversation, everyone can participate.  I should be available, whenever everyone agrees.

Om sai ram
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 23, 2009, 08:51:40 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Do you know any good service providers swarupgaru?? Do you know which one is best?? any one else??

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on November 23, 2009, 08:53:40 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Babu garu,

We can see one of the best demos for online meetings here.

http://www.webex.com/quicktour/mc/mc_global/mc_start.htm

We need flash plugin to see this demo. Please choose the language and click on 'start demo'.

Usually webex is used by professional companies and there is moderate monthly fee attached to it. If everyone agrees and comes forward may be we can try once and see how it goes. At present we notice there is upper limit of 25 participants for each presentation.
 
Dear Sai Bandhus, please share your experiences with online meetings. If there is any open source and free webinar, it will be great to start with.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Kalpana on November 23, 2009, 09:24:21 PM
Jai Sai Master,

I think Skype has free webconferencing feature.  This is the link for more information.

http://www.skype.com/intl/en/allfeatures/conferencecall/

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on November 23, 2009, 09:27:52 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Kalpana garu,

Did you try the skype free webconferencing? We tried webconference call where we could interact over phone. Did you try over video?

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Kalpana on November 23, 2009, 10:22:53 PM
Jai Sai Master,

UttamPallavi gaaru,

Sorry.I never tried it but just heard a lot about it.

Jai Sai Master.

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: sai sri on November 23, 2009, 10:40:23 PM
yes i talk to my brother in india ,he uses web cam i can see him well.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on November 23, 2009, 11:46:23 PM
We normally use Gotomeeting.com.
But I get my university access, I am not sure about the costs etc. Let me find out more ....


Om sai ram
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 24, 2009, 01:37:06 AM
Jai Sai Master!!

We used to use flashmeeting.com but those guys aren't responding to requests any more for new registrations. That was very good though. Also, webex also is terrific. we used to have animation webinars and online meetings. Skype was pretty bad if the number increased more than three with video. So, im not too much enthusiastic about skype. But the others (webex and gotomeeting) seem great!

Check this out :
http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/course/view.php?name=FM

demo
http://flash.kmi.open.ac.uk:8080/fm/fmm.php?pwd=bc45df-2618

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 24, 2009, 02:02:43 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Gotomeeting seems to be for scaring screens, and not for webcams.. only audio it seems.. is that right??

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on November 24, 2009, 02:48:32 AM
I personally never used webcam with gotomeeting. Mainly used for ppt. But yeah I think webcam cannot be used....

Om sai ram
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaimasterDevotee on November 24, 2009, 08:06:48 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Gotomeeting seems to be for scaring screens, and not for webcams.. only audio it seems.. is that right??

Jai Sai Master!!

Jai Sai Master!

You are right sir! We can only share screens, and wont be possible to do video conferencing.  They are used it for demo purposes.....have to still make a phone call while demoing. And seems like we should go for another one.

Jai Sai Master! 
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: svelagal on November 25, 2009, 11:21:16 PM
OM SRI SAIRAM!

Dwarakanath garu and all sai bandus,
I am looking forward to attend the webinar, if every thing goes well. I suppose adobe webinar is also a good option to start with.

As long weekend is approaching, I may not able to connect to internet if this happens  during this weekend, hence I thought of sharing my doubts.

I spoke to my brothers and sister (parents of a 5 year girl and 1 year boys), and asked them to try the home schooling.
We had a long discussion about the practicality of it as individuals.

These are few of the points

If the child is single what kind of games she/he can play without any other child company. (I told them Tagore?s example), but there can be chances that they don?t like it doing all the day.
If we ask them not to watch TV (we also don?t watch), but general tendency is if we say don?t do it, then the curiosity increases what happens if I do that.
Teaching bhajans and moral stories: It will definitely increase the curiosity in child and they will start asking more questions, we should be good enough to give the correct answers, rather simply diverting the attention.  We ourselves in the learning phase, so how to teach them?
Can we take them to gatherings such as marriages, birthday parties?  If the other kids are talking about some TV shows or video games, might be our child gets attracted to them, then how should be our reaction?


Can you please give us a right direction to practice this to bring the kids in a good environment?


OM SRI SAIRAM!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 26, 2009, 12:09:28 AM
Jai Sai Master!

As you can see, some of the keys of my key boa-d a-e not -o-king.. I'll type mo-e once i get my new key boa-d.

Jai Sai Master!!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on November 26, 2009, 12:20:14 AM
Jai Sai Master !

When is the long week end approaching ? Would not that be ideal for such a webinar ?

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 26, 2009, 04:09:31 PM
OM SRI SAIRAM!

Dwarakanath garu and all sai bandus,
I am looking forward to attend the webinar, if every thing goes well. I suppose adobe webinar is also a good option to start with.

As long weekend is approaching, I may not able to connect to internet if this happens  during this weekend, hence I thought of sharing my doubts.

I spoke to my brothers and sister (parents of a 5 year girl and 1 year boys), and asked them to try the home schooling.
We had a long discussion about the practicality of it as individuals.

These are few of the points

If the child is single what kind of games she/he can play without any other child company. (I told them Tagore?s example), but there can be chances that they don?t like it doing all the day.
If we ask them not to watch TV (we also don?t watch), but general tendency is if we say don?t do it, then the curiosity increases what happens if I do that.
Teaching bhajans and moral stories: It will definitely increase the curiosity in child and they will start asking more questions, we should be good enough to give the correct answers, rather simply diverting the attention.  We ourselves in the learning phase, so how to teach them?
Can we take them to gatherings such as marriages, birthday parties?  If the other kids are talking about some TV shows or video games, might be our child gets attracted to them, then how should be our reaction?


Can you please give us a right direction to practice this to bring the kids in a good environment?


OM SRI SAIRAM!


Jai Sai Master!!

Firstly, its very hard for the kid to grow up alone. Better if one has companions, right? But, if the kid is allowed some provision of interaction with other kids for some time of the day (may be when everyone is playing), and the rest of the day, if we provide for responsible activity for the kid and if the kid is taught to read good books and discuss about them, i dont think that it should be a problem. The idea is not about isolating the kid. Its about protecting the kid. However, until a certain age, the kid is not too much of a fool to require same age-group. The kid sees every one similarly (irrespective of age). If intellegently taken care of, then there should not be a problem even if other kids are not around. The child would love the company of adults too.

Curiosity factor regarding any TV or others does come in. It is but natural, infact, nurturing!! But the association with the tv, that it is cool, etc. for eg., is what causes temptation. The kids are curious about a lot of things, but hardly venture into doing those things until they are young adults. If we take care that we give correct inputs as to why one should abstain from tv, the child will be strong enough by the time one becomes a young adult, and will not get tempted into it. Besides, if it works out as it should, even if the kid watches tv as a young adult, the strength developed so far will give possitive results even through the tv.
In our house, we never abstained from TV. But we were made to realize not to waste time, nor to watch 'bad' things in tv, and we were trained to the taste of 'learning' that we used to get attracted only to 'learning' channels and not others.
We are not trying to put in 'restrictions' at all. We are not trying to develop blind beliefs. We are just providing the food and training to develop strength so that the kid may face the world and succeed, in the truest sense of the word. It is a matter of personal preference later on for the kid, which way he chooses to live, with tv or without, with spirituality or without. Our point is to provide the right cues at the formative stage of life  in the hope to facilitate better choices later on.

Watching TV is a dissipation of energies. The audio-visual impact of the medium is far too great. It creates lasting impressions. It preaches without allowing for questions. It makes the mind dull and makes it soft. It provides instant gratification, and promotes forgetting responsibilities. It shoves on peoples minds what ever that happens to be, and its not selective in what is being pushed at the people. It makes the body lazy, and develops tendencies of relaxation through laze, rather than relaxation through work and thinking and completion. It dishes out false values, false emotions, etc. towards the viewers, while making them oblivious of their worlds, their emotions, relationships, problems and responsibilities, thus creating artificiality. It becomes an addiction. And, all in all, it robs the country of valuable man-hours of its citizen. Its an unnecessary luxury, a disturbing indulgence. True that it COULD be a wonderful medium when used properly, but the fact that it IS not. The actors are fake, the emotions they show are fake, news items selected for the 'dramatic' and advertisements aim at selling things that are 'unnecessary'. All in all, its a vain venture the nation and individual looses out resources of time, money, mind, relationships and individuality. It kills the spirit of 'seeking' and moulds a person to accept what is dished out. Imagine a person who cries for false emotions, a person who sees the 'wild' only 'virtually' and is happy about it. Image the person who sees places and peoples of the world, but only in his house without interaction. Imagine being satisfied by all that, nay, being addicted by all that. The value of the fresh breeze of high mountains, the freshness of the dews, the solitudes of caves, the thrill of watching 'life', the education of actually being in various environments and interactions, all of them are lost slowly, if not suddenly. And all of it so that some people can make money out of such fateful indulgence and weakness of the multitudes.

That is what we want to avoid. We can, ofcourse, use the little little usefulness that inevitably remains, even in the TV, if we can. What we are teaching is to make the kid abstain from falling into the above mentioned traps.

Teaching the kids through Master's books is good enough. Tell them, honestly, that the kid can get better information from Master's books.

In my house, several devotees used to come with their kids. All of them with their own set of habbits, moods, personalities and failings. What we were taught was to have confidence in the things we are being taught and our way of life. So, the flow of influence was always from us towards others. Also, there is usually a mockery of all the nonsense in the world, and it is made infront of the kids. For example, Amma would start with a 'chi chi' when talking of tv or movies and then make so much fun of the actors, stories and addicts, that it seemed great to be on the better side of life. It was 'great' that we dont fall for the cheap tricks of the media. And we were told of the problems of such indulgence that the 'unlucky' multitudes are having to face, without teachers like Master to guide them. We were encouraged to speak to people NOT to watch TV, rather than they telling us to watch.

In the whole process though, there should be dynamism. Not rigidity. If the kid wants to watch TV too strongly, let them watch, but make them subtly understand that they are doing so out of weakness and it is shameful to indulge in such things and the problems that such a thing causes. Not in a hurting way. It should never be pointed out AT the kid, but at the world at large, and the kid must want to get out of it by himself. Thats the idea. Not forceful restriction, but willful abstinence, that is needed.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: sai sri on November 27, 2009, 05:42:56 AM
babu garu what about food habits ,they also play important role in kids growth.how much freedom can we give them in clothing.

sai ram.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 27, 2009, 05:57:32 AM
Jai Sai Master!!

Sai Sri garu,

Well, those questions will get answered automatically. I dont want to set 'rules'. That is not the way to go about raising kids in my honest opinion. It is much of a child to child and situation to situation basis. The more deeply we go into the discussion, the better becomes understanding between us.

As I mentioned at the start of this thread, there are some points to remember which I have written there.

Among them,
Kids, born without mental deficiencies, are generally conducive to learning. They want to learn.
They follow what they see. Even if they dont seem like following, what they see gets imprinted in their minds and will come into play, both consciously and unconsciously, in their lives.
Just like adults, they do have ideas, opinions, likes and dislikes and individualities. It frustrates them if we intrude too much upon those, just like it frustrates us if someone does so.
The attitude towards life and surroundings, like security, love and world-view, as well as self-image, which is how they see themselves, is determined mostly by early childhood.
The idea is to provide the best environment in which the kid is allowed to grow as naturally as possible, into an individual that can live a full life, full of joy, courage and virtue.

Based on these points, we have to look at what is the right way to go about raising them, where are the points that most people fail and how to counter certain general issues that are common in most kid's lives. And while doing so, we will tackle a few topics, like developing a sound mind and body, instilling confidence, instilling devotion, encouragement towards right things and discouragements towards wrong things, teaching to manage emotions like anger, frustration and fear, helping them learn how to learn and finally, utilizing that opportunity (of raising kids) how to improve one-self.

I will tackle each topic in the following posts.

Jai Sai Master!!

Jai Sai Master!!

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on November 29, 2009, 12:48:22 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Has everyone gone through the reference material provided? Any updates on webinar??

And, anyone has any questions regarding anything discussed in the materials so far?

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Sai Master Forums Team on November 29, 2009, 08:57:17 AM
Jai Sai Master !

Dear Sai bandhus,

We are posting one article by Mastergaru on upbringing of kids, from this month's (yet to be released) magazine. Please study to it better the discussion.

Article on Kids page 1 (http://saibharadwaja.org/images/magazines/December%20Issue%20-%20Article%20on%20Kids%201.jpg)

Article on Kids page 2 (http://saibharadwaja.org/images/magazines/December%20Issue%20-%20Article%20on%20Kids%202.jpg)

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Ananth on November 29, 2009, 12:29:49 PM
Jai Sai Master, Babu garu..
Jai Sai Master, Sai Bandhus..

Dearest TEAM, Jai Sai Master and thank you very much for this lovely article by our Master.

regards,
Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Priya on November 29, 2009, 01:14:01 PM
Jai Sai Master

Thank you very much for posting this article on kids by Master garu.

This article touched deep in my heart.

Jai Sai Master
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 01, 2009, 09:57:03 PM
Jai Sai Master !

Dear Sai bandhus,

We are posting one article by Mastergaru on upbringing of kids, from this month's (yet to be released) magazine. Please study to it better the discussion.

Article on Kids page 1 (http://saibharadwaja.org/images/magazines/December%20Issue%20-%20Article%20on%20Kids%201.jpg)

Article on Kids page 2 (http://saibharadwaja.org/images/magazines/December%20Issue%20-%20Article%20on%20Kids%202.jpg)

Jai Sai Master !

Jai Sai Master!!

This article puts a lot of things in perspective, doesnt it? It says the gist of all there is to say, almost.

Now, I will write things in short, as Im a bit pressed on time because of the festival and magazine release and release of other books, what about the mothers who need to go and earn a living? Cant they, and should they not do jobs even then?

Well, the answer lies, not in the above question.

Firstly, it is a pity, almost an insult, on the entire human race, on the current society, especially the neighborhood of such a mother (parent) that both the mother and child have to face such a situation. If there is proper blood flowing in any one, rather than alcohol and narcotics, one will be prompted to make the necessary arrangements, in person, or by motivating his own group of friends, relatives and other helpful organizations, so that the mother and child need not seperate, such that they dont need to worry so much about sustainance, but that they are provided with the necessities - both material and mental peace, so that both the mother and the child can grow properly.
Secondly, when such help is not possible, atleast the kid should be cared for by the neighbors or relatives so that the mother can take care of livelihood. But still, it is a shame on us all, for such things are evident in the society.

But when such a dire situation is not there, and the mother simply wants 'freedom' (which by the way, comes only by spirituality and not by any career) and so ignores the kid, and feeling that her life and choices as her human right of free will, such a person is apt, IMO, for psychological evaluation by a competent psychologist. When the kid is taken care of till the certain age, and when he is put in proper hands for nurture, then the  WOMAN can do her bidding, based on her own insecurities, opinions, tastes and feelings, as long as they dont affect the kid badly. Infact, a woman should become as self sufficient as she needs to be, especially when one doesnt have the necessary one-ness of purpose with the entire  family. If the entire family starts feeling as a single organism, and the survival and sustainance of it is taken as a collective, then, and then only, IMO, that a proper upbringing is probable, and even then, if a spiritual outlook is maintained, then only it is possible.

And, what right does a woman have, in ditching the life of a kid for her own selfish reasons, while it is her prerogative to bring a helpless being into this world?? So, until that is taken care of, the MOTHER, must take up and fulfill her responsiblity to the full, before thinking about her own selfish vocational fantasies.

What do you say?

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: rajashri on December 02, 2009, 08:16:28 AM
jai sai master!
jai junior  sai master!!
Freedom comes only by Sprituality and not by career-Babugaru

Babu garu,
        Please explain
jai sai master!
rajasri
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 02, 2009, 09:51:39 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Think! Rajashrigaru, think about it. Not too hard to understand, especially for anyone who reads Master's books. This thread will side track if we go onto that.

I am having a sprain in my left hand ring finger, making it very hard to type anything long.. Thats why, big posts arent coming (they should have come by now, since Dattajayanti celebrations are over..) So, please discuss things and lets see how this thread moves forward.

Once again, did everyone see the material provided? I think, after seeing all that, one gets a gist of what im trying to write. Any outstanding issues with those references?? Anything particularly unclear?? I wonder if everyone is making the same inferences im making, from those valuable sayings of greats. I would love to hear what others are thinking, after reading all that.

If everyone is ok with what is given, and has gone through most of it atleast once, we can start the discussion. Now, I think, it will flow much more pleaseantly and beautifully into our minds. I will start with children, then cover the topic of marriage and then come on to job and marriage combo.. :)

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on December 03, 2009, 08:02:47 AM
Well before going to details, just wanted to clarify....


Firstly, it is a pity, almost an insult, on the entire human race, , that a proper upbringing is probable, and even then, if a spiritual outlook is maintained, then only it is possible...........................



mmmm............Is this your opinion? given by someone like mahatma?, or derived from someone's philosophy?........... obviously most of it questionable or subject to interpretation....

Regarding the articles, again Freud is too controvertial to be taken as reference....... even the story of man/love, is it hypothetical one or based on real case report, if so reference plz?! Because the question is say hypothetically if a child is raised by two males, he should totally turn-out to be criminal... which is not the case and several case reports are published in that regard...... I will go into the details latter....

Om sai ram
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 03, 2009, 01:16:26 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Well, Freud being controversial or not, psychotherapy(analytical, jungian, etc) does says that the seeds of any misbehaviour (psychopathological problems) in early childhood, and parents and guardians as major reasons. Any study in psychology tells you that. And people turning out to be criminals if brought up by two males, etc.. well, might not necessarily be so. You see many factors do contribute. And, one of the most important things that effects is parentage.. Being controversial, outside the closed peer-reviewed circles, a lot of physics, chemistry, neuroscience, etc. are all quite controversial and questionable, arent they??

Quote
Is this your opinion? given by someone like mahatma?, or derived from someone's philosophy?........... obviously most of it questionable or subject to interpretation....

 That a proper upbringing is probable, and even then, if a spiritual outlook is maintained, then only its possible, is my statement, and i dont see a problem in that statement. (ofcourse, stuff on similar lines is being said by Mahatmas for not one, but hundreds of centuries). Now, it is derived from thinking about various things, from personal experience, from studies of various books by various greats, and ofcourse, it is subject to interpretation. If something is not subject to interpretation, it ends up being archaic, and mostly gibberish, anyways. Questionable, well, sure! And answerable too.. ;) Thats the point.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Raghuram on December 03, 2009, 05:50:38 PM
Jai Saimaster!

Sorry, if it is too late to ask these questions. I have not gone through all the replies in this thread. But as far as i read, i have few questions.

1) This question, i had in my mind since really long. Can I understand what master says, if I have any feeling for or against him? When I look at the teachings of a master, before I read a sentence, I already accepted in to be true. Rather than asking 'is it true' i ask 'how is it true', blocking certain view of the matter in question. Is it possible for any one to not get carried away by the images we create of any one while reading their teachings?
Yes or No. But how? I think this question is important because, all through this thread we have been referring to the teachings of Master. or do you think it is not important?
2) Looks like there is a need for change in every individual in order that Kids are raised properly for a better generation. Is this change something that can be brought about by practice or by force or by discipline? The same 'me' who wanted to watch movies and do all stupid stuff, wants to change now. Can I force myself not to watch movies and then get rid of it so that I can ask my kids not to watch movies? IMO, by forcing I am trying to escape from it. Definitely, it should not be forcing.

IMHO, I cannot go forward unless the above things are clear. If any one reading this thread has already taken a decision to change, I would like to know why. Is it the love towards Dwarakanath garu, that he is taking so much pain to explain things to us or have you felt the utter need to change? If it is the later, i would like to know how it is. Because sometimes, I felt that the need for change in me is genuine, but later, I felt that it's ok, let me first do my own things and then think about changing.

'm very sorry if I've missed important discussions in this thread. Please don't mind pointing me to the previous discussions if any that can help me.

thanks!

jai sai master!



Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on December 03, 2009, 05:54:54 PM
Jai Sai Master !

Dear Raghuram garu,

Excellent questions. However my personal opinion that an indepth discussion would put this thread off track. Probably another thread might be better. :)

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Raghuram on December 03, 2009, 06:15:05 PM
jai sai master!

Here it is sai garu:
http://www.saimasterforums.org/index.php?topic=1206.0
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on December 03, 2009, 07:54:17 PM
.. Being controversial, outside the closed peer-reviewed circles, a lot of physics, chemistry, neuroscience, etc. are all quite controversial and questionable, arent they??
....................... a spiritual outlook is maintained, then only its possible, ...... If something is not subject to interpretation, it ends up being archaic, and mostly gibberish, anyways. Questionable, well, sure!......

So the moral of the story is ........ all are just opinions... and .... everything is controversial ....  :)

Pretty good conclusion ... huh?!   ;)

But in all fairness, I think child needs constant attention, and children develop trust in a very limited number of people around.... for that matter even adults, but adults trying to be social dont show-off distrust...... Over the ages, The constant attention to the kid is made a full-time job for the mothers, because she gave birth.......
I think child raising is a family shared responsibilty, not just mother, .... everyone father, grand parents etc...

All that warmth and love between baby and mother and out-of-context psychology studies,..... are just good to read, as usually society (the way its created) doesnot want to question them..... Horribly so, the society has taken it to such an extreme, even if the mother is sick, the expectation is "get well soon and cook for me"......

......the baby would display same amount of attachment towards the people who take care regularly.
So developing that correct-frequency matching group is the key, in fact there are several studies where-in babies raised in social neighbourhoods develop better learning skils compared to restricted gropus..... of course this can be negated by saying, those are studies by closed peer-review circles or what ever............ but restricting mothers, and giving theories doesnot go well with me.....

In fact i would strongly advocate multiple activities (2-3) to mothers or any one, including child raising and atleast one being out-door (which could be money-earning job or a kind of social service or anything)... instead of child-rasing being single full-time only job..... (again by job, i mean any thing we do, other than sleeping) .....

Om sai ram
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 03, 2009, 08:36:40 PM
.. Being controversial, outside the closed peer-reviewed circles, a lot of physics, chemistry, neuroscience, etc. are all quite controversial and questionable, arent they??
....................... a spiritual outlook is maintained, then only its possible, ...... If something is not subject to interpretation, it ends up being archaic, and mostly gibberish, anyways. Questionable, well, sure!......

So the moral of the story is ........ all are just opinions... and .... everything is controversial ....  :)

Pretty good conclusion ... huh?!   ;)

But in all fairness, I think child needs constant attention, and children develop trust in a very limited number of people around.... for that matter even adults, but adults trying to be social dont show-off distrust...... Over the ages, The constant attention to the kid is made a full-time job for the mothers, because she gave birth.......
I think child raising is a family shared responsibilty, not just mother, .... everyone father, grand parents etc...

All that warmth and love between baby and mother and out-of-context psychology studies,..... are just good to read, as usually society (the way its created) doesnot want to question them.....

......the baby would display same amount of attachment towards the people who take care regularly.
So developing that correct-frequency matching group is the key, in fact there are several studies where-in babies raised in social neighbourhoods develop better learning skils compared to restricted gropus..... of course this can be negated by saying, those are studies by closed peer-review circles or what ever............ but restricting mothers, and giving theories doesnot go well with me.....

In fact i would strongly advocate multiple activities (2-3) to mothers or any one, including child raising and atleast one being out-door (which could be money-earning job or a kind of social service or anything)... instead of child-rasing being single full-time only job..... (again by job, i mean any thing we do, other than sleeping) .....

Om sai ram

Jai Sai Master!!
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So the moral of the story is ........ all are just opinions... and .... everything is controversial ....
Pretty good conclusion ... huh?!

Thats a darn good conclusion, if one can really get to it.. Almost Buddha like. However, in our normal, mundane life, even though everything is questionable, we do tend to agree on certain things as 'common sense', and some others as 'collective unconscious' as Jung puts it. So, things must be interpreted, as intelligently as possible, and based on certain axioms, and hoping to change opinions or even the axioms if need be. Isnt it the scientific method?? Or does it also require peer review to agree upon?? :p

Quote
But in all fairness, I think child needs constant attention, and children develop trust in a very limited number of people around.... for that matter even adults, but adults trying to be social dont show-off distrust...... Over the ages, The constant attention to the kid is made a full-time job for the mothers, because she gave birth.......
I think child raising is a family shared responsibilty, not just mother, .... everyone father, grand parents etc...

Rather, its not over the ages that mothers are made into a 'full-time' caretaker career woman, in all logical probablity. It is just that the human infant is one of the most weak infants of any species. It needs taking care by the mother for a long time after birth. Where as in most other mammals, the young ones can fare pretty well on their own, except in dire situations. That prompts one reasons(evolutionary, if you want to call it so) for mothers to take care of the kids. Also, like in most mammals, since males are more promiscuous (or capable by biology, for eg. lack of pregnancy), and in the early ages of human evolution, before a strong family system was established, it was really hard for a male to accept a new-born as his son, since no one quite had the surity about such things.. (indeed, there are even tribes now which have doubts..). This is the reason that mothers tend to care for the children more than fathers.. This seems to be the accepted scientific view on this point.

However, there are other factors as well. For one, the child is physically connected (until the umbilical is cut) with the mother, and while in the womb, feels along with the mother. And this is a known fact for generations. And then, there is emotional bonding for the mother. Even the father has such emotional bonding, if at all one is sensitive enough for those things. So, its really not a matter of distrust (which the child can only feel after sensory accuracy is attained, which is months after birth) but more a matter of dependence and relation, both emotionally and physically, on part of the child towards the mother.

Child-raising is a social responsibility, if you were to ask plato. It surely is, atleast, a family responsibility. No doubt. But the special connection with the mother cannot be ignored. I would love to see a father breast-feed a child, saying it is a family responsibility. Specialization is imperative.

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All that warmth and love between baby and mother and out-of-context psychology studies,..... are just good to read, as usually society (the way its created) doesnot want to question them.....
Well, the warmth and love between baby and mother is FELT and so, no need to question it. not 'not want to'. Same is the case in many mammals. Infact, the modern science knows so little about emotions (especially outside psychology), that it is just about alright in terms of brain-mapping. Its like being able to find out sounds of vowels of a script. thats good. But not good enough to understand shakespear written in that script. Question 'emotions' as one likes. That is the point. Questioning it reveals secrets. But, their existence cannot be denied.


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......the baby would display same amount of attachment towards the people who take care regularly.
So developing that correct-frequency matching group is the key, in fact there are several studies where-in babies raised in social neighbourhoods develop better learning skils compared to restricted gropus..... of course this can be negated by saying, those are studies by closed peer-review circles or what ever............ but restricting mothers, and giving theories doesnot go well with me.....

What you wrote is quite true. I do agree with it. That, again, doesnt diminish the mother-child relationship what-so-ever! Good frequency matching group is always welcome. As a supplement, not a replacement to the mother. And, whether it goes well with you or not, restricting mothers is not the question. Hampering children is not acceptable. What is needed is that both the mother and the child are favoured, ALONG with everything else. And if thats not happening, that doesnt go well with me!!
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In fact i would strongly advocate multiple activities (2-3) to mothers or any one, including child raising and atleast one being out-door (which could be money-earning job or a kind of social service or anything)... instead of child-rasing being single full-time only job..... (again by job, i mean any thing we do, other than sleeping) .....
Well, I would too, not just for mothers, but for everyone. As for mothers, as long as the children are not hampered, go ahead, break a leg!!

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on December 03, 2009, 10:11:17 PM

 Question 'emotions' as one likes. That is the point. Questioning it reveals secrets. But, their existence cannot be denied...........


Well another kind of emotional black-mailing, as questioning it just can be twisted to a heart-less case, and blocking it right away......

because fathers cannot breast feed, so let mothers take up the entire burden (now dont argue its not a burden and its pleasure, everyone knows the sweet-pain reality of it  :o) .... we cannot deny that male-dominant societies have abused that situation of nature's precious gift.... can we deny that?

Working women, What is loosely considered a narcotic-fantasy, is more than likely a responsibilty for that person and living up to the expectations of/for the people around them.... can we deny that??

But regardless, I think, as with several things, all this issue by enlarge depends on the individual circumstances and theories and philosophy be it case-study, spirituality (whatever both mean) really dont feed a person's hunger........  If circumstances push any person can be made a criminal, need not be absence of "mother-connection signal".......

In my opinion, a discussion on the circumstances and may be probable solutions to change them....

What do you think?

Om sai ram
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Ananth on December 03, 2009, 10:25:23 PM
Jai Sai Master, Babu garu..
Jai Sai Master, Sai bandhus..

Raghuram garu, Jai Sai Master..
Asterias garu, Jai Sai Master and I am sorry that I am briefly posting my thoughts here with reference to raghuram garu.

Quote
If any one reading this thread has already taken a decision to change, I would like to know why. Is it the love towards Dwarakanath garu, that he is taking so much pain to explain things to us or have you felt the utter need to change?

Actually it is a combination of both of the above and some more reasons too. Sri Guru Charitra and Sai Leelamrutam have several quotes of why we need to do parayana and satsangam (I am sorry I keep bringing these topics into my answers) and it has culminated (and it still does for many countless devotees) into our love for the sadgurus and our inherent faith (which may waver many times but still gets pulled towards those sadgurus) in them.

So, I can say it is the love towards Dwarakanath garu, Master garu, Sri Sai as much as the trials and tribulations of our lives, the frustrations of day-to-day lives and the awe of it that keeps us wondering about it more and more. It is the love (although limited) towawards the sadgurus as much as our need to change for the better. I can say each of the traits complement each other (provided we are desperate to move ahead in spirituality) as is mentioned several times in both the satgranthas (or the holy books).

Your need to change will make you search for a teacher. And your love for your teacher (or a sadguru) makes you search for a change. If anybody says that he/she does not have a teacher and still he/she changed for better, then I will say they are only cheating themselves. The book they read to change (or get ideas), the billboard that they watch when they drive (and get ideas), the soothing advice they get from a father or a wife or a husband.....all of them act as teachers from time to time. So, by regular parayana, we tend to get an awe towards the sadgurus and we wait and wait and wait for them to show us the way. It might not be spiritual. It can be as simple as not taking a particular bus (in this modern times, when we are stopped by our sadgurus when they say, "take the next bus") or can be as complex as raising a child.

It is a combination of all these traits that we tend to change or look for change, mostly for the better. Only if I love my father that I will heed his word atleast for change's sake and then see if it works or not. Alas! it is not as simple as testing whether something works or not. That's where our love comes into play. When we Love our sadguru (agreed, it is limited with our vices and good things) we put our faith, many times not knowing what's in store for us.

It is that kind of change that I want to inculcate and put my faith in mahatmas. There is a long way to go. One step at a time, one vice to burn and one good attitude to develop, with THEIR WORDS!!!!

So, for your question, my personal answer is my love and respect for Dwarakanath garu, not only because he is taking pain to explain things, but for many many many other reasons which I cannot explain AND ALSO my need to change.

Best Regards Raghuram garu,
Jai Sai Master!

Ps: As per the other question, whether we should change forcibly or not, here is a brief view of what i think Raghuram garu. "Forcibly" is a very loose term that we use these days. As an example, there is a very very fine thread that separates "discipline" from "force". As a person with so many bad qualities, I will put myself to give you an example. Watching movies to while away the time and then my father asks me not to watch them suddenly "no matter what" is discipline. I have worked 16 hours per day 6 days a week on the trot and I watch a movie on the 7th day (even this is bad as per mahatmas but for our reference i am bringing this topic) but my father stops me is force. Remember, I am referring to that one-movie watching as my vice. Easily I can entertain myself and yet learn something useful by doing something else but I watch the movie.

In the same way, how do I draw the line where I need to heed the words of the Master and where to Question? So, in my view, a gradual change is definitely needed where a little discipline (the more, the better) is needed which definitely seems like "force" for many of us. For example, we can sacrifice our movie watching until our kids are asleep (again our good vices into play :-) ) and then we can watch the movie. I know it is definitely not possible always but it can be tried.

Hope my thoughts did not offend you Raghuram garu. Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Raghuram on December 03, 2009, 10:42:12 PM
Jai sai master ananth garu. I copied your post to another thread.
http://www.saimasterforums.org/index.php?topic=1206.0
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Ananth on December 03, 2009, 10:53:19 PM
Jai Sai Master, Babu garu..
Jai Sai Master, Sai bandhus..
Jai Sai Master, Swarup garu..

Quote
because fathers cannot breast feed, so let mothers take up the entire burden (now dont argue its not a burden and its pleasure, everyone knows the sweet-pain reality of it  ) .... we cannot deny that male-dominant societies have abused that situation of nature's precious gift.... can we deny that?

I did not quite understand by what you mean by the above. Are you saying that mothers take the entire burden and that breast-feeding is not a pleasure?

Infact, there are too many 'medically-acceptable' and 'peer-reviewed' books (in your own words) that shows direct relationship between absent-motherhood and voilence. There are too many reference about the breast-feeding and an infinite "goodness" and many unexplainable connections between breast-feeding mothers and their children. All I can say is, maybe "ABSENT MOTHERHOOD" is not the ONLY reason for violence. There are many skewed-minded mothers and fathers in this modern world who have completely destroyed the bliss of motherhood and breast-feeding. And Swarup garu, I know I need to refer those books but unfortunately I cannot quote them. I have read several times over the last two decades and I don't remember one of them. But if you insist, I will dig them out and give you those references. The very same references where they related many bad things to the absence of motherhood.

I can categorically say that "motherhood" is the single most blissful thing for any woman. Yes, she has to transcend the many hardships and live responsibly "to the expectations of/for the people around them" as you refered. But the actual motherhood pulls her out of those hardships of living for others. This is not my testament but a woman's testimony. Many women, not just one off or one on!!

Sorry Swarup garu, that I barged in between you and Babu garu, but I just wanted to get a clear idea of what you were saying regarding the above statement. Now, I will go back to  reading your intersting discussions.

Best regards to you,
Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on December 04, 2009, 12:34:20 AM

Are you saying that mothers take the entire burden and that breast-feeding is not a pleasure?

...................

By Sweet-pain I refered to entire child-raising process (of 18-21 yrs).... not limited to one event......................

Furthermore, what i mean is, a real blissful event, just by short-sightedness is made into a painful/ burden thing by call it tradition or rules, or anything....

derogation of values as it is said, is a by-product of force... but only with liberty, proper values can be instated......

Even a pleasure when forced can be turned into burden..... thats what is called postpartum depression or post partum blues, where there is a threat to the baby from none other than mother (<2 month old)..... (how much against the natural thinking, isnt it?) that is because of the pressure the mother goes through, in the absence of supportive environment.....

By no means I am making a case against Motherhood... which is the one of the very very few things I really respect and bow on par with the supreme consciousness I trust, But what I am against are the social evils of exploitation, in the name of motherhood...... Just for example, is it not a fact mother is blamed for giving birth to a girl-child.... and we think we live in 21st century of technology.....

Please read the entire discussion, if what i wrote is still incoherent... i will clarify...........

Om sai ram
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Ananth on December 04, 2009, 12:47:08 AM
Jai Sai Master, Babu garu..
Jai Sai Master, Sai Bandhus..
Jai Sai Master, Swarup garu..

Sorry, maybe my response ticked you off. I have been following the entire thread and although my question was for a single event my opinion still stands still. That of bliss for motherhood to raise a child not just as an infant but for 18-21 years. And as for incoherence, I am learning a lot. So, I can never be authoritative on this topic, inspite of being a father of 2 children.

Anyway, I will switch back to reading your discussions.

best regards,
Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on December 04, 2009, 01:58:32 AM

Sorry, maybe my response ticked you off........

Never ever ananth garu :)

Om sai ram
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 04, 2009, 02:52:57 AM
Jai Sai Master!!
Quote
Quote
Question 'emotions' as one likes. That is the point. Questioning it reveals secrets. But, their existence cannot be denied...........


Quote
Well another kind of emotional black-mailing, as questioning it just can be twisted to a heart-less case, and blocking it right away......
I dont understand this at all..  I am talking about studying emotions scientifically. I dont understand the emotional black-mailing part.

Quote
because fathers cannot breast feed, so let mothers take up the entire burden (now dont argue its not a burden and its pleasure, everyone knows the sweet-pain reality of it  :o) .... we cannot deny that male-dominant societies have abused that situation of nature's precious gift.... can we deny that?
Who is talking about 'taking up the entire burden'?? Isnt it already said that its a responsiblity of the entire society?? And, ofcourse, it is not a burden. A bit of physical exertion, may be, but not a burden at all. It really is sweet. I totally deny that it is 'burden' or 'pain'. If some one feels so, let them not think of progeny if they can help it. Why get into burden unnecessarily? (im talking of both mother and father, btw).
And, its not male dominant societies that have laid the responsibility, its the birth of a child that demands it. Male dominance might push it all on the lady, which is totally wrong, ofcourse. But, even in female dominant tribes and societies, (read up on them a bit, in anthropology.. Russel's 'marriage and morals' gives a short glimpse of some such tribes) certain particular responsibilities are taken up by woman. The argument on my part is that each one has to do his/her responsibility, as far as things permit, and share the rest. And, mother's presence with the child (atleast until yr 8, and in case of a girl, till puberty), is part of that responsibility.
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What is loosely considered a narcotic-fantasy, is more than likely a responsibilty for that person and living up to the expectations of/for the people around them.... can we deny that??
Well, its not considered narcotic-fantasy. It is called 'social living'. Living up to the expectations of others is part of it. When such expectations become too much, its all right not to try to fill them. However, responsibilities are not 'expectations'. They are 'necessities'. Responsibilities need to be fulfilled. Otherwise, it can be called a 'narcotic-fantasy'.

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But regardless, I think, as with several things, all this issue by enlarge depends on the individual circumstances and theories and philosophy be it case-study, spirituality (whatever both mean) really dont feed a person's hunger........  If circumstances push any person can be made a criminal, need not be absence of "mother-connection signal".......
Well, they do feed a person's hunger, when properly applied. True that circumstances push people in various directions. That doesnt mean that such circumstances are normal and are universal. That is why, not everyone is a criminal, atleast to common-sense. But the logic that seems to be implied in that sentence is not right, if i understand it correctly. That is, one cannot extend the logic and say 'since circumstances push any any person can be made a criminal, need not be absence of 'justice'. need not be an absence of 'father. need not be an absence of 'morals'. etc..'

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In my opinion, a discussion on the circumstances and may be probable solutions to change them.... would be more interesting or enlightening, rather than making a case for "connection" and laying down rules for some group, which everyone knows and no-one denies publicly............
Well, funny. how can a discussion on circumstances and probable solutions to change them can even exist, when people deny some of the basic facets of the problem given?? If one of the people who are discussing it cannot stand discussing a 'case for connection' which is integral to discussing the circumstance, then how can one hope to come to a probable solution to change them?? Can you deny the 'connection'?? So much for a 'discussion', huh?

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What do you think?
Well here is what I think.. If one is too close-minded to properly read posts, or to clearly think about situations, and if one is too close-mindedly biased towards some idea which doesnt stand well to reason or common-sense, and then one rants just for the sake of it, then there is no point in discussing with such a person. I clearly mentioned these sentences :
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Child-raising is a social responsibility, if you were to ask plato. It surely is, atleast, a family responsibility.
When it is such a responsibility, it is to be looked into carefully. And, mother must play her part in it too. What problem is there in that?

When that is not understood, and if 'a case for "connection" ' is blindly refused, well, so much for a discussion!! What wonderful way to think (if it can ever be called 'thinking')!!

And, for those narcotic half-drunk people, who in their blind fervor of making a case for 'feminism' and 'woman liberation', try to decry the role of a mother and its responsibilities, and put children at peril, they better have psychological evaluations. Women are to be liberated, but not at the cost of forsaken responsibilities. If anyone starts to think that talking about responsibilities as a matter of 'oppression', better start preparing for a psychotherapeutic evaluation for 'paranoia'. And if a particular lifestyle is chosen, with a particular goal in mind (such as a spiritual life style based on paativratyam,  desa bhakti, etc.), then it is imperative to accept the responsibilities that come along with such a choice. And if children are being subject to unnecessary hazards because of over-zealous, incorrect 'feminism' or 'woman liberation' ideas, then its a laughable matter. Feminism or woman liberation need to happen, not irrespective of responsibilities, but along with a fulfillment of responsibilities.

And this whole 'its a burden' idea regarding child upbringing that is being shoved into the minds of women is mis-guided, if not outright 'foolish'. Until the so called 'western mind' (not really anything wrong with the West, by the way, its just this select group of deranged individuals that were responsible for it) invaded the mind-sets of people, it was never felt as a burden. Now, some one suddenly jumps in, taking that its not 'deniable' that its a 'burden', its a matter of friendship and goodwill that keeps such a person amidst a discussion, not the power of that person's logic. If child-raising is seen as a 'burden', better not get into it. Why get into it and gamble on that poor child's future, when one is not in the least bit informed about how to raise kids, nor inclined to try?? If its a 'burden' to any one, better not bring children. Period.

But saying 'oh I want kids' and then saying 'oh its a burden' is criminal almost, and lunacy in its most forgivable.
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I can categorically say that "motherhood" is the single most blissful thing for any woman. Yes, she has to transcend the many hardships and live responsibly "to the expectations of/for the people around them" as you refered. But the actual motherhood pulls her out of those hardships of living for others. This is not my testament but a woman's testimony. Many women, not just one off or one on!!

Very well said Ananth.

There is a whole wealth of information regarding the mother-child connection, starting right from 'Garga samhita' and 'Charaka Samhita' to psychology books to Hahniman and kent speeches on homeo. Just a wealth of case studies. Spiritually speaking, mother hood is compared with 'srushti yagna', the birth of the cosmos. Mother is compared with 'nature'. It is these half-baked, half-informed, self-styled so called 'educated people' who dont understand the motherhood of nature, and try to 'capitalize' it and 'conquer' it and 'control' it in the name of science and technology and economics and freedom, that are truely anti-feminine. If such people, with their own intellectual deficiencies,  start belittling the role of the woman as a 'mother', and call it 'burden', so much for their foolishness and ignorance. My mother (and many other women who i spoke to) and my sister dont feel it as a 'burden', not even as 'sweet-pain' but, as you said, feel it as 'bliss'. If so many people, including Mahatmas, value that phase, so much for the retardedness of intellect of the person who de-values it. The wave of this false culture seems to be overpowering sometimes, even to an optimistic like me. At such times, these words come to my mind :

yento baadhaga  gangaghir chetulu pattukuni," poyevaadu potaadu, niliche vaade nilustaadu. chitta suddhi to tarinche maargam cheppadame mana pani"  ani cheppi tama aasanam pai koorchunnaru.

Aayane antati maatante, ika manam enta, amana abhipraayalenta?

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 04, 2009, 03:38:38 AM
Jai Sai Master!

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Well frankly I dont see how can some one be called closed minded, for presenting a different perspective and telling the above and going to the extent into someone else business and judging to have kids are not.
Well, frankly, presenting a different perspective is not the problem. That is not what was called 'criminal' and 'lunacy'. Read the post again. What is being called 'lunacy' is the deprivation, and ideas of deprivation of fundamental necessities of the child in the garb of 'feminism' or 'personal freedom' or 'someone else's business'.

And when one is not willing to read the posts in their spirit, then ..
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But the way it is, and the only thing I agree with you,  i think it would be a waste of time discussing at this pace.....
Then so be it.. Stop discussing if you so think its a waste of time, and may be, as a friendly suggestion, start learning, not from me, but from the references provided.



Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 04, 2009, 05:33:49 AM
Jai Sai Master!

lalithagaru, im not stopping. I will continue the discussion, with or without swarupgaru.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: swarup on December 04, 2009, 05:43:46 AM
Extremely sorry for my out burst..... It is with utmost respect, but with frustration i see in the society i wrote like that..... Please re-read my modified post I wrote above, where I made my ideas more explicit......


Are you saying that mothers take the entire burden and that breast-feeding is not a pleasure?

...................

By Sweet-pain I refered to entire child-raising process (of 18-21 yrs).... not limited to one event......................

Furthermore, what i mean is a real blissful event, just by short-sightedness is made into a painful/ burden thing by call it tradition or rules, or anything....

derogation of values as it is said, is a by-product of force... but only with liberty, proper values can be instated......

Even a pleasure when forced can be turned into burden..... thats what is called postpartum depression or post partum blues, where there is a threat to the baby from none other than mother..... (how much against the natural thinking, isnt it?) that is because of the pressure the mother goes through, in the absence of supportive environment.....

By no means I am making a case against Motherhood... which is the one of the very very few things I really respect and bow on par with the supreme consciousness I trust, But what I am against are the social evils of exploitation, in the name of motherhood...... Just for example, is it not a fact mother is blamed for giving birth to a girl-child.... and we think we live in 21st century of technology.....

Please read the entire discussion, if what i wrote is still incoherent... i will clarify...........

Om sai ram

Making me look like a half-baked bad guy is fine, and my question to other supposed humanists (as everyone else, as most of you can modify the society much more than me), when I said discuss the circumstances, I did not mean with any wrong way, let us get to the root cause of why there is feminism movement, btw, i have no concept of feminism every group has their own rights and are not at the mercy of anyone, Just like a white guy telling he will give equal rights to colored skin, a male telling he will give equal rights to women, who is some one to give rights to others..... no one is at anyone's mercy.. History says revolutions come because of oppression..... Much more horrible, the most liberal factions says, they GIVE freedom and treat equally, The latter group is much worse, in my opinion. Again historically, certain groups who held power turned to supposed liberals or landlords or certain holy bestowed groups, but the mindset never changed.... unless everyone have freedom, and as long as freedom is GIVEN its never going to change......

Spirituality and whatever, all that is fine (regardless of my belief in it), but, we cannot just close our eyes when there are several problems in the society (women-rights being one)....  If spirituality and pathivratha dharmalu are taken as the starting point and opposing is considered foolishness, simply not acceptable. period. May be I am wrong (I wish I am wrong) but Traditions/culture/or if included spirituality, as it known to any common person, is GIVING freedom, and not empowering anyone. SO the seeds of dominance still exists and starting from there is restarting a wrong path....... stay Let me think about it and come back more importantly when I see the results either from non-mythological history or present day, nothing would make me more happier than any tool empowering every person and treating every person with dignity and respect, But the oppoiste I have seen a lot and went through the hippocracy myself, I am just sick and tired.... As a fact-based person, I really want that to be succesfully (any solution as long as its a solution) atleast to a select group of people.....

Closest example I can give is: it is blamed that african-americans, mexicans are rude and have some gangs..... but why do they behave like that (not going into details certain radical groups)..... get the root cause and think about the unthinkable......  
look at the website www.abolishthenword.com (P.S: content not appropriate for kids and has true incidents).

Furthermore, also,  I dont fully agree with the notion that working women stands for liberty, (not because of the spiritual reasons, i have questionable ideas on) but the ground reality is, ARe the working women treated equally at work? Are they not considered laid-back and non-career oriented people? regardless of how much supposed non-discriminatory world we live in!

I have said it before and again Let me reiterate, Never did I and Neither do i claim I am logical or correct, but I always have scope to improve and be correct, thats the perspective with which i post...... and if illogically wrong and just a matter of supposed goodwill keeping me in this discussion as it is said (which btw, never needed, and i am not at anyones mercy for sure), and asked to step-back, I would happily back-up anytime...I am neither western-mindset nor eastern-mind set, what ever both mean. One taught to walk in veil and other taught acid-attacks. Which ever mind-set it is, Empowering every person is the only solution and reason I am staying-in here.......  for me, "poyina vunna" both are the same to me..... gonthu nalipeyadam and calling it closed-mind-set dheniki margam mathram kadhu...

Om sai ram
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 04, 2009, 06:33:41 AM
Jai Sai Master!

I can understand your frustration swarupgaru. Nobody is making you a 'half-baked bad guy'. Thats no one's intentions.

now, what you wrote in your modified post is quite right. I totally agree. Exploitation, in the name of motherhood, spirituality, etc. must be abolished. Infact, im one guy who firmly understands that any relationship, including marriage, is worthwhile when it is helpful to improving anyone's human potential (which ultimately is spiritual when there is improvement in human potential in any direction), and when it is hampering that human potential, it is quite harmful and there remains nothing holy about it.

It is totally one thing to exploit women in the name of their motherhood (or paativratyam, etc), where is it is totally another when looking at the role a woman can play in the whole scheme of things and the right way to go about it. Just because a woman is being exploited in the name of motherhood, it is unwise to deny her role and responsibility as a mother. Rather, the oppression and exploitation should be stopped while the full scope for fulfilling such responsibilities is provided for the mother, including her development to 'blossom every moment into a better manifestation of perfection'.

A mother is a mother. Totally non-replaceable. And the kid needs the mother. And so, it is her responsibility to fulfill that need in the best interests of the child. And it is the responsibility of the people around to create conducing circumstances for her to fulfill those responsibilities, like sharing her work load, keeping her at peace, etc.

But there is still a wider view point. You might agree with it or not, here is how i look at it.

Human is potentially divine, as Swami Vivekananda says. That is not gender biased. Everyone is searching for that lasting peace and contentment. And, owing to conditioning (which is the most common complaint), people are not able to raise themselves to the highest level. However, grownups have choices and the ability, atleast, to push themselves by themselves. They also are, so to speak, 'stuck in the mire' already and are struggling (should be trying atleast) to become spiritually better, based on the teachings of Mahatmas. But the kids are fresh starts. As the old saying goes, kids are divine. Pure. Koran says, everyone is born a muslim (as a perfect devotee of God), but as one grows up, misses the buss unless properly guided. Master says in Matam Enduku regarding the importance of proper upbringing, and also in many other places. And one part of that proper upbringing is the responsibility of the woman. Better upbringing, no doubt, contributes to better children. That involves betterment of the parents, as well as the betterment in the way kids are handled. All the various aspects have to be looked into.
True that circumstances might make a kid bad/good. But one cannot use that excuse to escape one's own responsibilities. Kids being much purer than adults (in the sense of not having garbage in the heads that stops people from realizing better ways of thinking and living) and are like fresh white papers. What we put on it matters.  And, my contention is that the best has to be put in. One has to give it one's best shot. Otherwise, one is depriving another being (the kid) of a better life, and ultimately, spiritual perfection. That is why, misleading a child has been labelled as an equal sin to that of killing a brahma (brahma hatya paatakam).
Looking at it from this angle, since most adults are stuck spiritually, more or less, and are trying hard themselves (should try if not already trying), it is imperative that they dont rob another of such a chance. I can see better future for humanity, where exploitation becomes non- existant, if the next generation is brought up better.

If we look at the problem of 'exploitation' and other social evils, the whole issue starts with fear and insecurity of the individuals. Those generate desires, which mandate (falsely) domination, which breeds hatred. Those same insecurities generate jealousy, ambition, competition and conflict. Those same issues generate pride, arrogance and brutality. However, the biggest antidote for it is right-thinking and strong will, along with good heart. That is, Vivekam, pattudala and satwagunam. Generating those in each of the people, as far as possible and as quickly as possible, is the only probable answer for betterment. In short, Dharma-acharana, is mandatory. Now, adults, whether male or female, are quite unable to do that. Atleast most people arent. Many people even dont have proper understanding, or proper access to great teachings to get that understanding. However, the starting point is in learning, clarity of thinking, courage (not foolish bravery), strength of mind and will, intelligence, lack of false-pride, confidence and health of body. One can easily follow thought and see where one is lacking (and where most humans are lacking) in that above list. So, atleast in the next generation, which is not yet 'spoiled' (i mean, grown up with much weaknesses), there is a way to improve those things, along with the right devotion. That way is not culture specific, nor race specific. It is human specific. Its about how people respond and react towards children.
There is a whole amount of scientific (not the royal society science, by the way.. the yoga science) literature on how to do it and what are the principles to keep in mind that help in developing that.

That looks like the most promising way for the society to go forward. That, atleast to me, seems to be the most important aspect that one needs to focus on, along with fighting the other social evils. That is what is about getting to the ''root' of the problem and eliminating it. If we are far too short-sighted and look at the problems of current generation only, what happens is that the same weaknesses that generate those problems will get embedded again and again, and the evil keeps cropping up generation after generation. True that we have to fight the current social evils, but the central point, for me, is ALSO to think about not perpetuating the same mistakes generation after generation. Luckily, bad people too, will eventually die. Let the good remain and blossom, while we kill the bad (not people, but tendencies). Lets work really hard towards bringing up a rock solid next foundation.

one might ask, is it possible to change the entire generation?? Well, 10 kids is a start. Their kids and their next generations, and all the people and generations they influence, will certainly make their mark. Thats how the religions (and the dogmas) survive. And, based on the herding instinct of humans, if even a select few stand up for the correct cause, there will be people who follow. If social evils and dogmas can be perpetuated, why not good??

The luckiest part of it is that humans have a wealth of culture and tradition to study. And Mahatmas to follow. Isnt it clear what needs to be done? In the light of this, do you see the biggest evil that is taking place? It is perpetuating the foulness of the society. Contributing to further weakening of humanity by hampering future generation. Hampering kids and youth from growing up properly. That is the biggest evil. Schools here in India (atleast the majority) are contributing majorly to that social evil. Teaching class-differences indirectly, wasting their energies, rotting their bodies and minds, with an absence in moral teaching, with an emphasis on selfishness and competition, with utter alienation from tradition and culture, and with a focus on getting people into the 'social mould' of insecurities and inadequacies, these schools are destroying my nation. They are heavily contributing to further perpetuation of evils in my society, including caste evil, female exploitation, corruption, etc. Rather than giving strong individuals, they are producing mall-functioning and sickened loners. You understand where im coming from??

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 04, 2009, 10:31:30 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Quote
Furthermore, also,  I dont fully agree with the notion that working women stands for liberty, (not because of the spiritual reasons, i have questionable ideas on) but the ground reality is, ARe the working women treated equally at work? Are they not considered laid-back and non-carrier oriented people? regardless of how much supposed non-discriminatory world we live in!

Very true, and i quite agree. Infact, in a world that is not  so spiritual in outlook, inequalities are the common symptom of that disease. Not just regarding women, but regarding manual labour, regarding a particular discipline, particular peoples, particular times, even though many people dont show it, inequalities exist. Even, just the concept of blood-relation and office friendship is enough to differentiate between such a person and an 'outsider'. Accumulation of wealth more than one requires (well beyond both satisfy ones' own needs, insecurities, etc. and those of one's immediate concern, to  a reasonable extent) is a symptom of the same disease. Lack of appreciation towards nature, its resources, and methods that encourage disparity between haves and have nots, etc. are also the symptoms of the same disease. I am not ok with any of those.

Dominating wife in the house is no different from being a fake guru. The weakness, the wrong, is the same. Its effect might vary in scope and range and so, one is a more dangerous issue than the other, but honestly speaking, both the dominating husband and the fake guru are afflicted by the same disease of 'domination' because of 'holy than thou' attitude, which comes because of ones own inadequacies and insecurities and complexes.

Thus, an overall healthy life-style is the only solution to all of them. They cannot be rooted out one at a time, piece meal. Trying to solve things one at a time would only be a suppression of symptoms, and will pass on the 'disease buck' to a new arena rather than getting rid of the disease altogether.
However, that doesnt mean that things should not be tackled. It only means that while we tackle problems as we see them, we should tackle, with equal eagerness, the root cause of the whole thing. That method of tackling the root cause is what is called 'spiritual life-style' and the principles of such living are called 'spiritual principles' or 'Dharmaacharana'.
As Master says in supreme Master, as long as the basic building block of the society doesnt become stronger, the whole edifice cannot become stronger.
http://www.divyajanani.org/saibharadwaja/books/ReadBook.asp?PNo=SW0010 (start from the Guru, first para).

Its the root-change that is required for all these to go. There is no other way. I mean, we humans are ingenious in finding ways to go around the system (or find loopholes) to carry out our dirty desires. Unless there is a fundamental change, the superficial changes do not really occur, and even if they seem to, that is at best superficial, and hence doesnt last.

Issues like caste-system (the foul system, not the true one), oppression of females, etc.. are just some other symptoms of the same disease that causes corruption, hatred, etc. These issues are assiduously discussed, not for a few discussions in the week-end, but almost day in and day out, for the major part of my life (i remember the issue of female oppression being discussed between me, amma and akka, when i was 8 years old, in 1989). And the people I discussed and learnt from are not the run of the mill normal people by any standards. Its with people who could guess structure of matter upto the bohrs model of atom, just by sheer intellect and observation, at the age of 6 or 7, much before anything like that is read in books. And if you know my household, you would know that there are no biased people here (may be im the weakest among the lot, kind of the 'black sheep'), not biased to tradition, nor to modernism, but only towards betterment of the individual and society at large. There is no room for blind belief at all in my house, other than where it is required (such as believing in the venom of a snake and running away from it). And with three women who are very very strong advocates of feminine freedom, the issue has been discussed, with topics and statements from many scriptures of many religions, to most common problems. And not just women related problems, but problems that humanity faces, had faced and would face were and still are being discussed at length and very deeply, almost all the time. (infact, the last year is the most silent year for me.. no time since i have taken up work of the organizations).

All said and done, I am, (it is obvious I think) not a pro-feminist. I am a humanist. A spiritualist, rather. I am not just concerned with the problems of women, but the problems of poverty, uneducation (illiteracy is a problem too), etc. I see all of them. I want to be able to work towards eradicating all of them. I very well understand that for one there is one problem, while for another, another problem is equally pressing. Women being oppressed is one issue, while ill-health and not being able to pay for medicines is another. One is not greater or lesser than the other. Both are the results of inhuman, almost animalistic, tendencies prevalent in the society. I want to remove such tendencies from with-in me and help others do so.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 04, 2009, 08:43:10 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Sidetracking just a little bit, but i think it is necessary, and pertinent, to talk about the women oppression issue.

The battle has to be fought on two fronts.
1. Empowering women
2. Making necessary cultural changes to facilitate and maintain the empowerment of women, by generating and keeping the respect up for the woman kind, etc..

And along with battling on both these fronts, perpetuation of the problem has to be fought.

1. Empowering women : This not only means financially or socially empowering women, but also making them strong from the inside. A little bit of thinking will elucidate the fact that strength of two types. 1. unshakability 2. Decisive power to achieve what is required.
If one looks into these two types of strengths, and sees how they develop, one is bound to come to the conclusion that most commonly, strength is achieved by developing will-power, self-confidence, abilities, strong mind and most importantly, a good ideal/goal. If one looks at the history of mankind, the strongest people are those with a strength of conviction, strength  of motivation and strength of the belief in goal.
Without these, just financial or social 'facilities' are not enough. They dont immune a person from sadness or oppression. A way to develop these qualities is essential. And that way should 'have a heart' so to say, that should be to the liking of that person. However, just because one likes something, doesnt mean its the best thing for them. So, clarity in thinking must be imbibed. One's way must be benifitial to oneself and to the world around, as much as possible. Allowing drugs just because someone likes to have them is not 'freedom'. It is enslavement to drugs. Isnt it?

Also, strength can be looked at in three spheres, each interlinked with the other. They are, physical, emotional and intellectual. Strength has to be built up on all these fronts. And financial and social support must be given so that these can be developed with-out hinderence. Without developement on all these fronts, if just the financial and social situations are forced to change, it only opens up new weaknesses in the system, and new ways of exploitation of weaknesses.

Incidentally, the same qualities are what we are looking for, to develop in everyone. Not just women. The requirement is universal. Very few people, who are stronger than others, are able to lead lives of contentment and correctness. Whether men or women. There has to be a way for humans to be able to develop those qualities, and while doing so, to hold a certain social structure that is conducive to such development, as much as possible. In the ultimate sense, even the social structure needs to be maliable to accommodate further growth. Why I say that is because, before the development of strength, there is also a requirement of protection and protection implies limits. And when strength is sufficiently available, freedom to even cross the 'protectiveness' must be there. But if protection is not provided from the start, human weaknesses will exploit other human weaknesses, hampering the development of such strengths.

In short, in other words, we need a good life-style. Both individually and collectively. Individually, it is called 'discipline' and collectively it is called 'culture'. Man's(ignore, please, the use of male related common pronoun. Im just used to it. And putting the point across and having the respect for women kind in the heart are most important right now, than mere vocabulary) attempts at these things have been as various as they are varied. And each has their loopholes. The only hope is to keep covering up the loopholes and striving for betterment.

However, as Master writes, unless there is a fundamental change in the individual, no amount of 'isms' help. That fundamental change, and the principles of that change towards correctness are what is called as 'Dharma'. The way is called 'spiritual life style'.

True that first aid is necessary, but treatment should not be ignored. Both have to take place hand in hand. Little bit of thinking will tell us that blaming is not the way to go. Recognition of mistakes and corrections is the only way to go. And to be able to make sound judgement, we need to have sharp discriminating mind (discrimination in the right sense of the word, as to correct discrimination between good and bad). Such is called 'Vivekam'. And to carry out those decissions, one is called upon to put forth all of one's strength. Such is called 'Nishtha' an 'Saburi'. A great amount of dispassion is necessary to be able to overcome weaknesses. Such is called 'Vairagyam'. These are necessary and are unavoidable, if one hopes to make any lasting improvement. They have to be inculcated as much as possible, currently as well as into future generations. That is the only way to go.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 05, 2009, 03:05:18 AM
Jai Sai Master!!

Well.. is anyone still reading the thread?? Swarupgaru seems to have changed his earlier post again, and taking it as an attack on him personally, while no where in the above posts it is so, (unless in response to his aggressive comments (not to him personally anyways, its towards his ideas in that comments), which he edited later on) and i think i have answered the posed questions already.

And, as for this :
Quote
every group has their own rights and are not at the mercy of anyone, Just like a white guy telling he will give equal rights to colored skin, a male telling he will give equal rights to women, who is some one to give rights to others..... no one is at anyone's mercy.. History says revolutions come because of oppression..... Much more horrible, the most liberal factions says, they GIVE freedom and treat equally, The latter group is much worse, in my opinion. Again historically, certain groups who held power turned to supposed liberals or landlords or certain holy bestowed groups, but the mindset never changed.... unless everyone have freedom, and as long as freedom is GIVEN its never going to change......

And if 'giving' is being seen as a matter of dominance, there is truth in it somewhere in the corner, but 'giving' can also be taken in the sense of respect. I give a seat to an old person in the bus. That doesnt mean that I am superior and he is at my mercy and i am trying to dominate or what ever.. infact, that sounds funny to read even. Giving equal rights is a privilege to both the giver and the taker. Its a matter of recognition of equality, rather than domination. It is called 'offering' (in the sacred sense of offering flowers to God). If one is seeing that as domination, well, what more can I say??

Quote
May be I am wrong (I wish I am wrong) but Traditions/culture/or if included spirituality, as it known to any common person, is GIVING freedom, and not empowering anyone.
Ofcourse, you are totally, completely wrong in that opinion regarding spirituality and spirituality-based tradition/culture. If ever it 'give' freedom, it is 'giving' as a respect and not as domination.

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If spirituality and pathivratha dharmalu are taken as the starting point and opposing is considered foolishness, simply not acceptable. period.
Spirituality is being proven as the answer. And pativrata dharmaalu are not being taken as a starting point.  Where was it taken as the starting point?? Show me where it was?? Now, whats happening here swarup garu? Where, in all the references given, in all the discussion before, is pativrata dharmam taken as a starting point?? Huh?? If you are going to get into a discussion prejudiced, and then misunderstand it, and then complain about it, what can I do?? Better get over it, or get out of it. No one is compelling you to stick on to a discussion where you are feeling stifled. A simple reading of the posts as they are makes it clear to anyone that no one is stifling you (gontu nalipeyyatam). Just like in all the previous discussions, you are being quite well respected. Its the ideas that you are presenting that are being refuted. If you cannot see that, well, what can I or anyone do??

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But the oppoiste I have seen a lot and went through the hippocracy myself, I am just sick and tired....
I have seen a lot of that opposite too.  The opposite (oppression and domination, etc..) all happen because of a lack of spiritual life-style. Well, im not yet sick and tired. I know there is hope and I live for that hope of betterment.

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get the root cause and think about the unthinkable......

Yes  I agree, and my earlier posts shows my ideas on this.

Quote
gonthu nalipeyadam and calling it closed-mind-set dheniki margam mathram kadhu...
well, true! adi deniki maargam kaadu.  ikkada yevvaru yevvari gontunu nalipeyatledu. If posts are taken in the wrong sense, i cannot help it.


Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on December 05, 2009, 06:44:40 AM
Jai Sai Master !

The whole point of this forum is open debate, keeping in the ideal of Mastergaru and other Mahatmas, in order to better our lives and lives of others.

Swarupgaru, I think that you seem to have been horribly mixed up between tradition, culture, religion, spirituality, social responsibility vs. social oppression, role of man and woman etc etc.

Dwarakanath garu, here are my ideas on what you have spoken so far.

Any spiritual progress is based on improvement of the self and of others. Spirituality is the "WAY" to happiness. Period. If we so feel that spirituality is limiting us, then either its not spirituality or we have not understood our roles and goal. Usually its a combination of both, neither do we have any idea of spirituality nor about our goals and roles.

In society there are a lot of problems. These problems are essentially due to weaknesses in humans and when collectively exhibited, these insecurities cause social problems. In a way each person is a reason for those social problems, while on the other hand the same people are also affected by these social problem. In a negative chain reaction, both individual and society gets degraded.

The question that then comes to mind is how to change this reverse trend. Each social problem is important, but how to tackle so many problems. At the end of the day, the approach should be in a way that we try to either hit at the root of all the problems or atleast start with that problem which in a way really affects all other problems. Both are equally good.

The latter one is what seem to be discussing in this thread. A child comes into this world with the least of samskaras ( adults spend their lives strengthing bad samskaras furthr and further). With the best of guidance, these kids would one day see the whole of society in a different light than we see and respond appropriately so as to creat a better society.

Just think of this - A kid if is made to feel sensitive ( kids are sensitive by nature its just that we end up teaching them not to be sensitive and to be ignorant. so in effect if we see to it that the sensitivity of the kid is not lost), not only would such a person look at poverty and hunger in a different way, he would also see corruption, gender bias etc in a very very different light. Instead of being a lame duck like me - who feels that world runs this way, I cant do much - such a person would atleast feel sad at the situation. If such a kid is made to understand his role and duty in such a situation - such a kid would do what is required. For years I have seen society and for years I have been made to think that society is not going to change and its better that I move into a 'better' society or just get used to it. And thats wht most of us do. We get used to it. There are crimes against women - what do we do? Nothing. People are hungry not just when we see them but also when we dont see them. Giving a rupee or two when you see them is not solving the problem at all . Its just strengthing the ego that I am good. We see of so much stupidity around us .. I dont need to reiterate what we all see in newspapers and what do we really do ?

I dont do anything. And that is the sad part. I do my Parayana for my wishes and never even think of what is happening outside. Such is the insensitivity that is taught to all us in the garb of being practical. We are told - what can you do , the world is a bad place. The world is a bad place - bad place because of us ! There is no others and no us. We are the society!

Now if kids are giving right training and made to understand their roles and the roles of each person and taught about the goals of a human being and society, their outlook is going to be very very different. Out of their own person limitations, they might not be able to do much overnight, but they would atleast see their own limitations and not pass on the buck to someone else.

And very importantly - When most of us really want to improve, want to do something good, want to be better - the first thing that comes to our mind is - I have been so weak all along. I have committed so many mistakes. Can I ever set everything right ? ... ... A lot of self piteous, self defeatist ideas come to our mind. We feel guilty at our actions and at our past and never feel comfortable doing anything right.

If on the other hand, right from our childhood, we got the proper understanding of this world, our resoponsibilities, duties, the correct picture, then its all very different. True for such training to be imparted to kids, we (adults) also have to understand their roles first and foremost. Because usually its when we want to do good ( which we think we know based on our experience) that we do bad to others ( if compared to what Mahatmas say).

IMHO, we need to understand ( these things have already been posted in this thread)

1. Understanding that kids need to be trained right in order for them to make correct judgements/choices later on in their lives.
2. Need for better upbringing of kids
3. Understand our roles inorder to upbring kids better.

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 06, 2009, 10:00:59 PM
Jai Sai Master!

I have been thinking a lot about this, and I feel it is necessary, and even quite late, to say this.

I seek forgiveness for hurting, even though inadvertently, the Sai in the form of Swarupgaru. Hurting is hurting no matter how its done or happened. I am truly sorry and bow down to Sai in all, and pray to protect me from any such further incidents.

Even though I am sorry for the hurt incurred, i am not the least sorry for what i have written. It was written in full consciousness, and I stick by what I wrote, what ever might be the repercussions. If the repercussions are great (that it helps some many, and that i will learn more), I will be happy.

Will continue the discussion if no one else has any doubts regarding the concepts described. I hope this thread wont get side tracked, but discussed properly, the concepts, which are of the most value anyways.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on December 07, 2009, 12:19:35 AM
Jai Sai Master.

Babu garu,

So far the discussion in this thread is excellent.

We are really going on very slowly with this thread. We could read Sri Krishnamacharyulu gari, Sri Jiddu KrishnaMurty gari and Gandhiji's Teachings. We could not read Yours and Swarup gari discussion completely.

Quote
Will continue the discussion if no one else has any doubts regarding the concepts described. I hope this thread wont get side tracked, but discussed properly, the concepts, which are of the most value anyways.

Babu garu, please give us some time to go through this thread and we would like to get clarity on what is discussed so far. We value this thread and would like to learn from this thread.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaimasterDevotee on December 07, 2009, 01:12:08 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Will continue the discussion if no one else has any doubts regarding the concepts described. I hope this thread wont get side tracked,,,,

Dwaraka garu,

I have some questions...but I'm very sure thay will side track this thread, but to get some clarity on that, i'm posting them here....once we conclude this thread(upbringing next generation).... and start a new thread with recent questions.....

Quote
unless there is a fundamental change in the individual, no amount of 'isms' help. That fundamental change, and the principles of that change towards correctness are what is called as 'Dharma'. The way is called 'spiritual life style'.

1) If these so called 'isms' are not bringing fundamental change in humans what's the point of their existence.
2)Are they(isms) really necessary to lead a dharmic life??
3)Cant we be spiritual with out these isms.
4)whats its role while upbringing next generation.
5)can we teach universal brother hood with this....suppose your house is separate, and our house is separate....we are bother and sister upto some extent,,,,after that we are separate......are they doing the same isnt it.

while buddha is alive there is no Buddhism....but why it originated?? 

Jai Sai Master!

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 07, 2009, 02:00:02 AM
Jai Sai Master!!

Quote
1) If these so called 'isms' are not bringing fundamental change in humans what's the point of their existence.
2)Are they(isms) really necessary to lead a dharmic life??
3)Cant we be spiritual with out these isms.
4)whats its role while upbringing next generation.
5)can we teach universal brother hood with this....suppose your house is separate, and our house is separate....we are bother and sister upto some extent,,,,after that we are separate......are they doing the same isnt it.

well, good questions!

1)If these so called 'isms' are not bringing fundamental change in humans what's the point of their existence?
 'Ism's are there because it is part of human nature to have 'ism's, whether one names them or not. A collection of rules, principles, ideas and traditions that are designed for a particular goal and are designated to the people are these 'ism's. Since man is a social being, it is inevitable to have isms. There are many 'ism's. Some push a person towards fundamental improvement. Some dont. Those that do, provide three factors.
1. A road-map, so to say, towards that goal.. that is, "if you try to understand and follow these principles, ideas, rules and traditions, you will reach this particular goal" kind of guidelines.
2. They provide a commonality between the practitioners, so that they dont step on each other's toes, or obstruct other's progress.
3. They provide protection from unwanted situations (arising from one's own misguided ideas, opinions, ways of living, etc.) until such strength is developed so as to overcome the weaknesses.

Essentially, therefore, isms are not purely social, they are both individual and group oriented. The quality of the ism lies in its scope, its manner of working and in its goal. Some are quite good, others are quite bad, obsolete or plain unnecessary.

2) Are they(isms) really necessary to lead a dharmic life??
Well, 'dharmic life' put in a social situation, and is provided with an applicable form, is what a good 'ism' is. However, usually 'ism's just go obsolete, until they are resurrected by readjusting them to the times and needs. So, in effect, your question "Are they really necessary to lead a dharmic life??", must first start by thinking about, to whome are they necessary. For example, you have a family. You have a set of family values, which are decided between your family members. And now, a youngster is born. You want to train them in the particular 'ways' of your family. Also, you want to make the household generally comfortable for everyone. That is, you want to make your home 'functional' based on certain pre-decided family values. You instruct the new-born in those ways by setting some rules, guidelines, etc. so that the kid can adjust into the same house happily. Here, you see, without naming it so, you have created an 'ism'!! In households, generally, adults who are more mature and knowledgeable set such 'isms' so that the young ones may avoid pitfalls in their lives. It helps keep the family intact, as well as teach the youngsters a way ahead, albeit with safety and care. If the goal of your family is 'Dharma', then, right from training and teaching (everything from vocabulary to manners to habbits) you would set some methodologies. Now, such 'ism', is it helpful for dharmic life or not??
The same thing, when done on a much bigger scale, is an 'ism'. People, however, are erratic. So, some transgress. They create problems. Sometimes, the 'ism' people (the followers) become dogmatic and unflexible. Then the 'ism' starts to be problematic. The solution, then, lies not in eradicating the 'ism' at all, but to improve upon it, update it, ressurrect it. So is the case with all 'ism's. In a family with very strong members who are all equally capable of living a Dharmic life, no 'ism' is needed to be set.. it automatically happens. Outside people will notice it, even if you dont name it!! So, ism is helpful, and inevitable, when dealing with more than one person, whether we name it so or not.

3) Cant we be spiritual without these isms??
Well, can we?? If we can, why so much nonsense in this world? Theoretically, we can. Isms help us get there, if they are good isms. Why not utilize them when they are benifitial? If the point of the 'ism' is to make one live 'spiritually' and help a lot of people do so, without stepping on each others's toes, why not??

4) What is its role while upbringing next generation?
This has already been discussed above. However, the ism should be flexible enough to let the new generation know, if not immediately, but ultimately, the goal of such ism and mould that ism as per changing times. Also, care has to be taken to show the kids not to dogmatic. If a good 'ism' is utilized, its contributions will be invaluable.

5) can we teach universal brother hood with this....suppose your house is separate, and our house is separate....we are bother and sister upto some extent,,,,after that we are separate......are they doing the same isnt it.
Ism-s are not doing it. People are doing it. Some 'ism's do it. They are bad. The point of 'ism's is to provide universal brotherhood. However, they have their limits. Ultimately, all 'ism's must be transcended. You see, naming people and objects, compound walls, designations in the offices, etc. all contribute towards SHOWING the seperateness. They are all different 'ism's whether one names them so or not. However, they dont 'CREATE' seperateness. People create seperateness and miss out on universal brotherhood. It is rather funny to hear some atheists saying 'so many ugly things happened because(they should probably say, in the name of) of religions'. As if everything else in life is alright if there are no religions. That is tunnel vision, isnt it?? Its us people who have problems. Not religions.

Oh.. regarding buddhism not being there while buddha was there...Well, Buddha laid down certain way of living, certain practices, so to say, to both monastic and lay followers. While He was around in His physical body, 'Buddhism' was truely there, more than it is there now. What was not there was the name. Now, it seems, the name is there and not really 'Buddhism'!! So, you see, its not a problem with the 'ism', its with the lack of that 'ism'.

I hope I answered your questions, or atleast provided some new stuff to think about.  Somehow, I doubt whether these are your questions.. Hmm..


Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 10, 2009, 07:01:43 AM
Jai Sai Master!!

Now, since those questions are answered, lets get on to children upbringing.

First, lets look at health. Health, in my view, is the proper functioning of the various faculties of the individual. That is, sound body and sound mind, not just STRONG body and STRONG mind. That means, the individual has to be able to respond to his needs and necessities in the most appropriate manner, have the right attitude, right skill set, confidence, learning-ability, retaining ability, analytical abilities, emotional balance (that is, having right amounts of appropriate emotion towards situations), courage, optimism, tolerance, respect, a good social view point (one that is constructive), ability to concentrate, or to think, and to be flexible to imbibe various viewpoints if one finds them good. That is the mental side of health. Contrary to popular wish and belief, there is not much we can do in that department. All we can do is facilitate, and protect from unwanted influences in the childhood. The rest will take care of itself. Its more to do with how the child takes it in and develops those things.. all one needs to do is facilitate, and may be even nudge towards betterment. Enthusiasm must be developed and curiosity must be honed towards good curiosity to learn, rather than idle curiosity to know. If possible, one can provide a good role model for the kid to look upon, set good examples and precedents, provide intellectual stimulation and help the kid cultivate the ability to observe and understand.

This is very closely tied up with physical well being. Physical wellbeing influences the mind and the mental well being influences the physicality. Both must be developed hand in hand.

As far as physical wellbeing goes, developing good taste, imbibing good habbits (by showing ourselves as examples, or someone better as examples),  providing lots of physical activity and most importantly, lots of play are the core issues. Developing a healthy attitude towards  physical work, improving pain endurance levels, etc. must be helped with, while providing a kind of respect for what one is provided with, rather than self-indulgence. Beauty sense (self-beautification disease) must be curbed as much as possible, while as care to maintain health is developed. Self-consciousness(inappropriate self-consciousness) must be shunned just as the self-beautification is being curbed. This need not be done forcefully, but taking care not to comment on the dresses of kids ("oh.. you look so beautiful" kind of nonsense) or on their looks, but to praise them on their good deeds and good deeds alone is necessary. For example, i remember Amma and Master telling me regarding dresses and looks, pointing out regarding how much they are overvalued in the society and how, the great people like Baba and others are least bit concerned or valued such things. Respecting people for what they are, rather than what they wear, was drilled into us..

You see, more than the 'ism's, a lot of such stuff is what creates 'seperateness'..  I should look good, better than others, that guy doesnt dress well, that guy is poor, uneducated, etc. are the things that develop such seperateness. True that people dont kill each other over dress-sense (as they 'seem' to do over 'ism's, but there are more things involved, like self identity, group narcissism, etc. in isms, which are not such factors in the simple case of dress-sense) but the root disease is there in both cases.

In my following posts, i will talk about a few things that i think are really important, which are being largely ignored, atleast here in India as I see them. For example, importance of physical training and play (not competitive sports, mind you) and social education. I will later on talk about 'discipline' as different from 'punctuality' and emphasize the value of true discipline rather than 'obvious' discipline. That is, somebody not thinking bad about others as more important than curbing just the outward expression of foul-mouthing others. I have seen parents say 'dont say such things' rather than letting kids speak their mind, and correcting attitudes rather than words. Ofcourse, there is the issue of manners. But respect always takes precedence.

Will write more after I catch some sleep.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaimasterDevotee on December 10, 2009, 08:39:02 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Dwarakagaru,

Quote
I hope I answered your questions, or atleast provided some new stuff to think about.  Somehow, I doubt whether these are your questions.. Hmm..

I wonder how and why you came to that conclusion......But honestly they are just my questions...other wise they would have been very abstruse....I think I did understand what you meant by saying that here.:) and thats my intention too...thats the reason i'd disrupt the thread for a while.

 well the reply is very very impressive yet very convincing....and no doubt that you have provided a right view....but i'll come back soon on that...

As of now ....as you said in the point#2 we are implicitly following certain pattern or a system in our life since because we are social beings...but we are not having any problem with them...like you said even though the word 'buddhism' not there people used to follow certain life style just like we following Baba and master now. Up to that point its well and good....what if an 'ism' originated with their name too...am not worrying about that any way.

Can we just follow them with out naming as some 'isms', thats the buzzing question.
What about our future Generations.....since they are living world wide....is it not hard for them to lead a peaceful life......and how many will come to know the central meaning of any 'ism'....as the word itself shows the central idea....out present day society is the best example, that people are blindly following those isms.

I did understand that the need of those 'isms' and why they follow different patterns, and other stuff, even though the central idea is same....because people used to live in different environments....so that is really necessary in those days....but what about people like us.....since from the morning we have to face different kind people.....and its very hard for us to follow certain pattern that we used to follow in our home land......if we follow, we have to answer many many questions...and finally we came to a conclusion....jaisa desh vaisaa vesh...then only we can mingle with others very easily....and its very essential for our kids to follow the same...so where is commonality?? please dont think that am against to any 'ism', as i belong to some 'ism' by birth.

As long as we are following (upto full extent/some extent) Baba and Master's teaching implicitly and unconditionally it doesn't matter we name it or call it explicitly as ISM.

seems like you have re edited the message....i'll go through that properly and i'll be back.

Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on December 10, 2009, 09:04:00 PM
Jai Sai Master !

Dear Lalithgaru,

Quote
while buddha is alive there is no Buddhism....but why it originated??

What do you mean by Buddhism ? If by Buddhism you mean the way to enlightenment as taught by Buddha, then Buddhism was was started by Buddha. In wikipedia (Gautam Buddha), it is mentioned that not only did Buddha form the first "sangha", He also sent His disciples all over to spread His message.

So Buddhism was infact formed and practiced right from when Buddha was physically present. As usual, when the father figure of any 'religion' departs, there are clashes and conflicts and misunderstanding and chaos. And the result is what we see as 'Buddhism' today.

In first paragraph of Sai Leelamruthamu, Sai ni enduku ela sevinchali - Mastergaru writes that religions are formed only due to Mahatmas. This means that even though Buddha was not telling that so and so is Buddhism, He was asking people to lead their lives in a particular way - and this is Buddhism.

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaimasterDevotee on December 10, 2009, 09:59:39 PM
Jai Sai Master!


Quote
while buddha is alive there is no Buddhism....but why it originated??

What do you mean by Buddhism ? If by Buddhism you mean the way to enlightenment as taught by Buddha, then Buddhism was was started by Buddha. In wikipedia (Gautam Buddha), it is mentioned that not only did Buddha form the first "sangha", He also sent His disciples all over to spread His message.


Yes sai garu i'm aware of that.
He tried hard to spread his teachings with compassion....not in the name of any 'ism'(my knowledge about this 'ism' is very minute and of course about any 'ism'...thats why so many doubts)....and EVERY 'ism' originated due to mahatmas only....by their followers...(here we are completely failing to follow a mahatmas, we do quite reverse of what they ask us to 'not do')....cant we follow their teachings with out a name....as masterji(All Mahatmas) said vyakti mukyam kadu, teachings mukyam.

Jai Sai Master!

P.S. please bear with me if i'm irritating any one with my immature questions.

 
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on December 10, 2009, 10:10:16 PM
Jai Sai Master !

Quote
cant we follow their teachings with out a name

Yes we can and then it would be called "cant we follow their teachings with out a name"ISM :D !!!

The purpose of any good 'ism' is to follow the teachings of 'ism's proponent (following what the Mahatma preached). However as Mastergaru points out in Akkalkot Maharaj introduction (English) that until the edifice of that ism, i.e. the building block , i.e. humans change - no ism can ever be successful.

I have not gone through last chap in Prabodhamruthamu so cant comment much upon it. I think Mastergaru would have talked about why we fail to follow isms in that book itself.

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 11, 2009, 07:05:39 AM
Jai Sai Master!!

Quote
I wonder how and why you came to that conclusion......But honestly they are just my questions...other wise they would have been very abstruse....

Oh.. im sorry, i think you mis-understood me in the context of this thread.. Its alright.

What I mean, when I said that they are not your questions is this : Are they the questions of YOU as a person, or a new ISM of asking questions even if we dont do anything about them??
You see, many people ask these questions about traditions, isms, what not. They even say they dont LIKE them. But, once we see what they are doing, they aren't doing much about it. They vehemently decry somethings, but dont do much about them.. You see, then the question props up. Do they care or dont they?
If they care, and thats why the questions, then something would be done by them (however small, but persistent). If they dont care (that is not worry about doing anything about the things they see as 'dangerous') then why the question??

In your (our) case, it might not even be the above angle, but we do ask questions based on certain 'conditioning' based on our own tradition, upbringing, circumstances, etc. We, as individuals, dont have such questions (most of our questions center around a lot more selfish (personally, or at best, family level) motives) most of the time!! But still, you see, every body has a question regarding spirituality, or 'ism' or something of that sort. See, there are two different levels happening here. One level concerns with what we think as 'necessary' for our lives, and another level just concerns with 'opinions' that generally dont bother us. So many people (including me) say 'politics today is a mudhole. But we live lives quite oblivious and unconcerned towards it!!

But if ever, we truely are concerned, we want to do something about these things, immediately, we have to consider the multitudes of people, and generalities. That forces us towards certain 'norms' and 'rules' and 'ideals'. And once that is there, and once we implement the 'correct' side of things, quickly we will realize that not everyone is on the same page yet. Not everyone has thought about these things, or concerned with these things. Then we have to form a methodology of making people understand and implement the things that are 'correct'. And to put everyone, including those who are quite unconcerned, we set up a 'social system', a group. And once we do that, we start an 'ISM' without naming it. That group will have its own separateness with-in and with-out. Separateness defines a GROUP or an INDIVIDUAL. Without a 'seperateness', there is no 'inidividual' or 'group'. And hence, it does seem like the 'ISM' is creating the separateness.
The fact of the matter is that seperateness was there before there was ever a 'group' in our minds. That separateness, infact, is what makes us ask these questions!!!

That was what I was trying to point out when I said, "Are these your questions?" I think they are the questions of your 'separateness' along with 'conditioning'. Or are you, as an individual, human, have a CONCERN with this 'separation' and 'isms'?? Do you really feel the 'pain' of separation that SEEMS to be caused by 'ism's AND a lot of other things? Is it that 'concern' that is asking the question? Or is it just 'opinions' that are asking that question? Or is it 'Separation' and desire for more 'separation' that is asking that question??

And even then, you see, there is further seperateness between the Question and the Answer AND the implementation. Most people dont even cross that separation. You see, SEPARATENESS is what starts the whole thing. It is what exists until you and I exist.

But, what we do about it is crucial, if at all we do anything about it. You see, most of these questions are a way to WISH more 'separation'. Very few of them are really because of the wish to 'unify'. When one wishes for separateness, thats when one decries. When one wishes for unity, seeing the 'separate world' embraces the 'separation', modifies it, and utilizes it to get to the root of 'separateness'. Then, its not a problem with just 'ism's. Then its a problem with names, forms, etc.!! The goal is not to shun, nor to embrace 'ism's, but to transcend them. That is 'Questioning just with MOKSHECCHA' as Master says in Leelamritam. Then it is pariprasna. Then Baba who is omnipresent is the Tattwadarshi that will show you the way!!!

This is really important for this thread. You see, what are we teaching kids?? In the light of this above discussion, where do you think we are going, with or without isms?? Do we really want the children to get to 'unity' or do we want our kids to 'stand out' (in the sense of 'outstanding')?? You see, the 'competition', 'ambition', etc. are all the results as well as causes of perpetuation of 'separateness'. People, us, although decry isms because they provide 'separateness', live lives FOR more separation!! And when you look at it in this way, 'ism's are a way to provide 'unity' atleast among SOME people, for SOME time. They WANT unity. They thrive on the dream of unity. (I am talking of good isms by the way). That is why every 'ism' wants to spread. Deep down inside, because of our identity crises and insecurities and loneliness, we want to be part of a 'group' and we, even if its too unconscious, want 'unity', since, it seems to provide less loneliness and more security. That is why even atheists who decry 'ism's, create a new 'ism' a new 'group' or a new 'society'.  It is part of human nature. Infact, it is same drive, paradoxically, makes us ask such questions!! If there is no separateness, who has a question? Who has to answer?? You see, even a question is an emphasis on separateness, just like 'ism's seem to be.

Think about it and let me know! How should we get out of this over emphasis on 'separateness' (which pervades even the decrying of 'separateness')? How can we get our children out of it??

Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on December 11, 2009, 08:36:13 AM
Jai Sai Master !

Excellent Babugaru !

What you are hinting at or what I understood from this is that there is thin line. We want our kids to be bred in the best possible way, we want them to be interested in social problems, trying for the correct things etc etc ...

BUT, we want them to be different from run of the mill kids !! Now this again, unknowingly lays the very seeds of competition (with other kids) which is what the present system is guilty of. The quality of being "GOOD" that we wanted to teach, is lost.

I am not sure that I am able to express myself clearly. Will think of it. These are really important questions - turning point question for this thread.

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaimasterDevotee on December 11, 2009, 11:18:04 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Quote
Quote
I wonder how and why you came to that conclusion......But honestly they are just my questions...other wise they would have been very abstruse....

Oh.. im sorry, i think you mis-understood me in the context of this thread.. Its alright.

I'm really very sorry Dwarakagaru.

Give us some time to share our views in this context.

Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on December 15, 2009, 07:10:03 AM
Jai Sai Master !

Dear Lalithagaru,

I am not sure if you have gone through this is or not. Mastergaru talks about 'isms' in the introduction to The Supreme Master (Shri Akkalkot Maharaj) - http://www.divyajanani.org/saibharadwaja/books/ReadBook.asp?PNo=SW0011

Btw, this introduction covers all the aspects of spirituality and is a MUST read, IMHO.

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaimasterDevotee on December 15, 2009, 09:40:04 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Thankyou very much aterias garu, for those references. I haven't gone through that index yet...I will do that now...along with matam enduku.

I'm requesting Dwarakagaru and other bandhus to proceed further with their views on 'upbringing the next generation'...i'll try to catch up soon...because I really try to see where am I, by asking those questions. :)
Quote
But if ever, we truely are concerned, we want to do something about these things, immediately, we have to consider the multitudes of people, and generalities. That forces us towards certain 'norms' and 'rules' and 'ideals'. And once that is there, and once we implement the 'correct' side of things, quickly we will realize that not everyone is on the same page yet. Not everyone has thought about these things, or concerned with these things. Then we have to form a methodology of making people understand and implement the things that are 'correct'. And to put everyone, including those who are quite unconcerned, we set up a 'social system', a group. And once we do that, we start an 'ISM' without naming it. That group will have its own separateness with-in and with-out. Separateness defines a GROUP or an INDIVIDUAL. Without a 'seperateness', there is no 'inidividual' or 'group'. And hence, it does seem like the 'ISM' is creating the separateness.
The fact of the matter is that seperateness was there before there was ever a 'group' in our minds. That separateness, infact, is what makes us ask these questions!!!

That was what I was trying to point out when I said, "Are these your questions?" I think they are the questions of your 'separateness' along with 'conditioning'. Or are you, as an individual, human, have a CONCERN with this 'separation' and 'isms'?? Do you really feel the 'pain' of separation that SEEMS to be caused by 'ism's AND a lot of other things? Is it that 'concern' that is asking the question? Or is it just 'opinions' that are asking that question? Or is it 'Separation' and desire for more 'separation' that is asking that question??

And even then, you see, there is further seperateness between the Question and the Answer AND the implementation. Most people dont even cross that separation. You see, SEPARATENESS is what starts the whole thing. It is what exists until you and I exist.

But, what we do about it is crucial, if at all we do anything about it. You see, most of these questions are a way to WISH more 'separation'. Very few of them are really because of the wish to 'unify'. When one wishes for separateness, thats when one decries. When one wishes for unity, seeing the 'separate world' embraces the 'separation', modifies it, and utilizes it to get to the root of 'separateness'. Then, its not a problem with just 'ism's. Then its a problem with names, forms, etc.!! The goal is not to shun, nor to embrace 'ism's, but to transcend them. That is 'Questioning just with MOKSHECCHA' as Master says in Leelamritam. Then it is pariprasna. Then Baba who is omnipresent is the Tattwadarshi that will show you the way!!!

This is really important for this thread. You see, what are we teaching kids?? In the light of this above discussion, where do you think we are going, with or without isms?? Do we really want the children to get to 'unity' or do we want our kids to 'stand out' (in the sense of 'outstanding')?? You see, the 'competition', 'ambition', etc. are all the results as well as causes of perpetuation of 'separateness'. People, us, although decry isms because they provide 'separateness', live lives FOR more separation!! And when you look at it in this way, 'ism's are a way to provide 'unity' atleast among SOME people, for SOME time. They WANT unity. They thrive on the dream of unity. (I am talking of good isms by the way). That is why every 'ism' wants to spread. Deep down inside, because of our identity crises and insecurities and loneliness, we want to be part of a 'group' and we, even if its too unconscious, want 'unity', since, it seems to provide less loneliness and more security. That is why even atheists who decry 'ism's, create a new 'ism' a new 'group' or a new 'society'.  It is part of human nature. Infact, it is same drive, paradoxically, makes us ask such questions!! If there is no separateness, who has a question? Who has to answer?? You see, even a question is an emphasis on separateness, just like 'ism's seem to be.

Think about it and let me know! How should we get out of this over emphasis on 'separateness' (which pervades even the decrying of 'separateness')? How can we get our children out of it??

Jai Sai Master!
Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 20, 2009, 04:23:08 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Now that the wonderful discussion in 'Knowing and change' thread is coming towards conclusion, shall we go ahead with this one? Did everyone go through the references??

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 22, 2009, 07:17:35 AM
Jai  Sai Master!

As we were discussing, lets look at health first.

A healthy lifestyle, both mental and physical is required for an individual to blossom. However, humans are born with biases. The idea is to balance out the biases to the extent possible, and to encourage the strong points and to nullify the weak points.

The physical system is a 'system' which requires a constant 'flow' of energy. Not just inflow, but outflow should also be good. As fritjoff capra likens, it is like the small whirl pool that we generate in the bucket of water by churning it with our hands. Energy flows into the whirl pool through our hands' movement. And by maintaining the shape (reverse conical, rotating), the water dissipates the energy. When the inflow of energy is equal to the out flow of energy, the whirlpool is maintained. But when the energy flow is stopped, the shape vanishes. Similarly, the human body requires inflow of energy through food, air, etc. and its outflow should also be maintained properly so that the body is maintained in shape. This whole process (which not only is in calories count, but also in thoughts and their intensities taken into account) is called 'Praana Yaama'. The flow of Praana into the body and out of the body, when regulated appropriately, produces the perfect individual.

When the child is small, much of the prana/energy taken in goes into 'growth' and some of it spent in 'work' or 'play', while the unusable part gets excreted.  It is essential, therefore, to provide for the maximum utilization of energy. It is a well known fact that the 'capacity' of the body is gained or lost based on usage. For example, if the lungs are being used well, their capacity increases and maintains at a high level, and when they are not utilized, their capacity goes down. Same is the case with other parts and muscles of the body as well as the brain.  The idea is to provide enough energy inflow and avenues for outflow where the whole system is balanced.

Unlike the above given scenario, most people look at a 'healthy diet' alone and ignore the 'healthy lifestyle' part. That is wrong. If more amounts of energy is being sent in, but are not utilized, there is stagnation. Its like the river of water. If the flow stops, water stagnates. And when water stagnates, it generates foul. Similarly, the prana or energy should not be made to stagnate. Both physical and mental dissipation are to be allowed. The best avenues we create for such dissipation, the best the lifestyle will be.

Also, just for the sake of dissipation, if a person is 'working out', thats not so healthy. It is alright in most of the cases, but not accurate. The food we are being provided with, as parts of this ecosystem, by mother nature, is provided so that we can utilize the outflow to the maximum effect possible for the betterment of the world around us. Instead, if we just waste it on a treadmill, its not an accurate utilization. Remember, im not saying 'work out' is bad. I think it is necessary. But 'work out' is to be utilized for strengthening along with a lifestyle where our energies are utilized properly.

The energy in the kid goes much into growth, both of the body and of the mind. Thoughts are also a kind of energy utility.  That is why, when excess energy is stored in the body and is not dissipated, it is hard to sleep, and control thoughts. High energy dissipation thoughts, such as the thoughts of sex and longing, are the symptom of such a situation. This point is given by Master in Prabothamritam here :

http://www.divyajanani.org/saibharadwaja/books/prabodhamrutham/P21_30.html

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Raghuram on December 22, 2009, 06:42:37 PM

sir, I'm trying to understand this. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Food, air etc are inputs as energy. This energy needs to be dissipated to maintain the flow.
Dissipation: Physically and mentally. That means besides physical excercise there should be good amount of thinking done to dissipate the energy. If there is no good activity of 'thought' then certain amount of energy gets stagnated.
This energy fnds its way through high dissipation thoughts of sex and longing.
Is it?

jai saimaster
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on December 22, 2009, 10:57:33 PM
Jai Sai Master !

Yes as far as I have understood. Since energy input and output need to be similar (if not same), and energy input is not similar to energy outputted through "useful" work and cant be stored beyond a point, it needs to be outputted and this happens through such thoughts etc.


Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaimasterDevotee on December 23, 2009, 03:49:05 AM
Quote
Also, just for the sake of dissipation, if a person is 'working out', thats not so healthy. It is alright in most of the cases, but not accurate. The food we are being provided with, as parts of this ecosystem, by mother nature, is provided so that we can utilize the outflow to the maximum effect possible for the betterment of the world around us. Instead, if we just waste it on a treadmill, its not an accurate utilization. Remember, im not saying 'work out' is bad. I think it is necessary. But 'work out' is to be utilized for strengthening along with a lifestyle where our energies are utilized properly.


Jai Sai Master!

Dwarakagaru,

Also, just for the sake of dissipation, if a person is 'working out', thats not so healthy. It is alright in most of the cases, but not accurate. The food we are being provided with, as parts of this ecosystem, by mother nature, is provided so that we can utilize the outflow to the maximum effect possible for the betterment of the world around us.......

I'm clear upto this point..that It is our responsibility to send that energy out into the eco sysytem which we acquired through air water and food. But having difficulty applying the next sentence..Instead, if we just waste it on a treadmill, its not an accurate utilization. Remember, im not saying 'work out' is bad. I think it is necessary. But 'work out' is to be utilized for strengthening along with a lifestyle where our energies are utilized properly.

here what point you are referring to...or you are referring to righteous living.

remembering masterji words from the speech 'mana dharmamu-kartavyamu' ...shavam kudaa evariki anyaayayam chaeyadu...etc..

Jai sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on December 23, 2009, 05:46:18 AM
Jai Sai Master !

Quote
I'm clear upto this point..that It is our responsibility to send that energy out into the eco sysytem which we acquired through air water and food. But having difficulty applying the next sentence..Instead, if we just waste it on a treadmill, its not an accurate utilization. Remember, im not saying 'work out' is bad. I think it is necessary. But 'work out' is to be utilized for strengthening along with a lifestyle where our energies are utilized properly.

here what point you are referring to...or you are referring to righteous living.

Here is my explanation for it.

Dwarakanathgaru says that body is equivalent to 'flow' of energy. This flow of energy is both directions. The input is from the food that we eat and the output is through work. The balance between input and output should be there so as to maintain shape.

Now how does this input energy come from ? The input energy comes from food which is what mother nature provides. So ideally where should the output energy go to ? It should go back to mother nature.

Hence the output energy should be used  in such a way which benefits the mother nature.

Now when I do exercise in the sense of going to a gym or stepping on a treadmill etc etc gym related exercises - what am i doing ? I am keeping the body fit which is very important. If the body is not kept fit, it will soon get into a problematic state. However better utilization of that output energy would have been if the person would do something that is helpful to nature. For example if a person spends some time in lets say cleaning the garbage around his area. The person would have to move a bit, lift a some heavy stuff etc etc. This way not only is He helping the society (and hence the nature) instead of just "working out" in gym where there is no obvious use to anybody. I dont think that the example is adequate. But I hope you get the gist of it.

Hence although the body (as provided by nature) needs to maintained in order, this order (or shape) is maintained through a balance between input and output. Input is always through mother nature and so the out put should also go back to Her. So work out remains second best since its not of much use to nature directly. One should do something so that mother nature gets back Her nature directly.

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on December 23, 2009, 05:50:28 AM

sir, I'm trying to understand this. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Food, air etc are inputs as energy. This energy needs to be dissipated to maintain the flow.
Dissipation: Physically and mentally. That means besides physical excercise there should be good amount of thinking done to dissipate the energy. If there is no good activity of 'thought' then certain amount of energy gets stagnated.
This energy fnds its way through high dissipation thoughts of sex and longing.
Is it?

jai saimaster

Yes, in thoughts of high intensity, such as those of procreation. And when there is a continuous stagnation, path ways of the dissipation of energy are blocked and that results in anxiety, some forms of neurosis, etc.
Quote
here what point you are referring to...or you are referring to righteous living.
Well, being useful to everyone as much as possible, is the ideal. "Sakala Jeevula sreyassu koraku jevvitanni maluchukovatame kadaa sai cheppina margamu?"

Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaimasterDevotee on December 23, 2009, 10:28:46 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Understood.

thankyou.

"Sakala Jeevula sreyassu koraku jevvitanni maluchukovatame kadaa sai cheppina margamu?" alaa andaru chaeyagaligitae anae alochanae chalaa haayigaa undi. udayam laechina daggaranundi chaesae prati pani kudaa selfishness.

Jai Sai Master!

Can you please clarify some more doubts on page#31

 బాల్యచాపల్యంవల్ల...............................అది లజ్జగా నిలిచిపోతుంది.....................శాంతి ఆనందాలు వాటిని సాధించడంపై ఆధారపడతాయి. అది జీవిత సమస్య.
according to these sentences lajja/siggu(shyness) is not a good character?
But in Sri gurucharitra....while taking about some qualities of daivee sampada...there mentioned..anuchita karyaalapaTla siggu kaligi vunDam is good quality. whats the catch in this.
 
Is eating spicy food also leads to this stagnation of energy(bigimpulu/immotility)? is that the reason where master prescribes uppu pulupu laeni pulagam vantivi dyaanaaniki manchivi(Dhyaanayoga sarwaswam)

Jai Sai Master!

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: rajashri on December 23, 2009, 10:52:51 AM
Jai Sai Master!
Thank You Babugaru
I had these questions in mind whenever i read prabodhamrutam about bigimpulu.Is this related to bigimpulu?(Dissipation of energy)
As Mastergaru says nurturing is not only for body.Mind also requires nurturing.
Maa ( my friends, siblings etc)childhood chala varaku waste ayipoyindi.Foundation leka badha padutunnamu.There is absolutely no consistency in thoughts and actions and they hardly meet.Coming generation bagundalani prardhana....
jai sai master!
rajasri
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: fullstop on July 01, 2010, 08:48:41 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Shall we continue this thread?

Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on August 10, 2010, 12:46:26 AM
Jai Sai Master!

More great stuff coming up soon!

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: anssprasad on August 31, 2010, 06:20:19 AM
I think children should also be taught about politics from an early stage with the right perspective. Politics is one of the most abused in our society right now. Abused by leaders(by looting and bad politics), people(by abstaining from participation), media(by making a mockery of it and abstaining from reporting the real issues). Politics is a community activity and is a process by which groups of people make collective decisions. It will be detrimental to our society to ignore politics any further. The way you have mentioned in some of your posts that we need to make things better (in any ism) than discard it completely, is true for politics also. There seems to be a ray of hope from parties like XXXXXX. If we do not support such movements and spread the good ideas, it would be detrimental to the survival of our society as well as the nation.

(I removed the party name since we dont want partisan politic discussions on these forums - Dwarakanath)
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on August 31, 2010, 10:01:28 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Anssprasad,

It is true that kids should be taught politics as part of their 'social awareness'. However, until the kids are old enough to think for themselves ( about 15 yrs of age ), it is quite detrimental to teach them about parties and partisan politics. All they need till then is to teach them about Nations, and Humanity and the relations between nationality and humanity and society, and the order of their preference. They should be taught the value of various forms of governance like monarchy, democracy, socialism, etc. and be taught about the failings of all those types of governance.

The spirit of social service must be inculcated first, and as we teach them History (by starting with History of peoples, rather than history of politicians which is in our textbooks, unfortunately) we should teach them all these social aspects. The unnecessary and inhuman nature of today's politics should not be made to disturb the child's national spirit. It would be rather unfortunate if kids speak of 'which party should come to power' and attach more importance to parties than to nations. And once they are old enough, they must be able to select their sphere of social service (of which politics is a very minute, corrupted part) that they want to pursue their lives in.

Will write more on this.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on August 31, 2010, 10:57:24 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Politics, as per the definition, stands as to mean 'collective decission making'. This necessarily does not mean the 'partisan politics' and 'governance' that we have today. Politics, in the social sense, for the welfare of everyone, must be taught to kids. But the current partisan politics is something i would not teach kids until they are around 20 yrs of age. And until they start seeing that parties cannot do more than a tiny weeny bit in terms of society and that people do more. I dont want the kids cribbing about bad politicians. Rather, I want them to be concerned about 'badly educated people'. And the improvement of the people should be taught as paramount, irrespective of the current form of governance, namely democracy, and the current state of partisan politics. And improvement of the people does not depend on the political system we have today.

As I said earlier, depending on the current state of the society, kids (and people) should be thinking about what needs to be done, rather than what a particular government should do, nor about what a particular party would or should do. It would be very unfortunate to see too kids talking about whether a particular party should be elected or some other party. Particularly because, which ever party comes to power, the responsibility of each of us remains the same, and in all general and usual circumstances, what one needs to do remains the same. Rather, the kids should be talking about how each can contribute to the society and what aspects should be approached first, etc.

Considering the fact that individuals must improve before the system could have sustainable improvement, current politics (im talking about the non-definition, partisan governance politics of the world) seem trivial. Caste based votes, religion based votes, financial supports and all the muck that is around make the governance largely ineffective in local spheres. The kids should be taught that unless the people are empowered and unless the people are developed into proper human-beings (with all the faculties such as thinking and feeling and understanding, etc. functioning at the optimum levels) no government could do much to the society. Rather, its the people who have to get up and start working to improve the society, along with and if need be, inspite of the government.

From this point of view, the kids must first be taught what a human-being is and what a society is. And what service is. And what right living is. And what Mahatmas said and taught and how they lived. And what sciences say. Their characters should be built properly. Universal brotherhood must be taught along with national spirit. And they should be taught about social service, social conditions and duties and responsiblities as humans, since a very young age. And in all this, care must be taken that partisan politics are not discussed. History must be taught to kids, but not the history of politics and politicians, but history of the people. (which means, how peoples wants and needs developed and how societies and their conditions developed, inspite of and because of the political structures). And the kids should be taught that they must stand on their own two feet, and not depend on governments to provide them with incentives to be socially active. They must be taught, with a huge emphasis, that one need not get into governance at all in order to serve the society, and that in today's world, it is better to avoid getting into governance, unless one sees a strong point in favour of such a move. They must be taught how nationalism is subservient to humanity at large, and humanism is subservient to universalism (taking into consideration all the ecosystems, etc.) and that by being a part of a particular nation does not and should not interfere with one's own sense of one-ness with humanity at large. They should be reminded that no Mahatma ever entered politics, atleast in the present age. And that no Mahatma ever did support a particular party. They should be made to read Gandhi, Bhagatsingh and Subhash Bose and other such great leaders. They should be taught about the ideal forms of governance as prescribed in the scriptures.

All the above must come first. Otherwise, there is a good chance that kids start falling to the false propagandas of the parties and the sillyness of the current state of politics and society. They must be trained to become reformers of the systems for the betterment of the society, not puppets. I for one, dont let my students (below the age of 30) to watch or discuss any of the current politics.  I dont approve the students of reading newspapers or watching news in TV. I rather let them discuss political theories, theories of democracy, marx's writings, etc. with a critical eye. But that too very rarely. We have a lot more work to do in a lot more spheres of life.

For eg., proper awareness of true spirituality among all the members of humanity, proper view point of health and education, etc. are more pressing. Developing as proper individuals, with an emphasis on character and strength and honesty and intelligence, is even more pressing. Without these, any other discussion falls apart and makes the individual stray away into mediocrity. And so, at a young age, say, till 18, kids should be concerned with the really important issues of Sadhana, Dharma and Seva.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on August 31, 2010, 10:28:54 PM
Jai Sai Master !

Here are my views.

I have seen a lot of stress being put on bad governance and bad policies of government for whatever ills that we see in society today. Somehow people 'feel' that there is an entity called government and that it is supposed to govern us. Similarly many feel that one is forced to do something or to conform because there is pressure from the society.

But we all have to stop and think. What we see today in the society - bad governance, corruption, ill treatment and every other abuse of policies - is not something that is happening without our intervention. We are a part and parcel of all this. In JK's words - You are the Society, Sir! We are the society and we are the government. If it is not functioning properly, one can be very clear at least at our level that we are not functioning properly.

Why should a person want to cheat others ? Why should one want to be in a postion of power? Why should one want to abuse the system according to his desires? And finally - why are we tolerating it?

True that politics is playing a spoil sport. But do we really require some kind of policy or a directive from the government to make ourselves better? If there is a poor person in our locality, it is our responsibility to see to it that he gets food as much as it is government's responsibility to see to it that policies are framed in such a way that poverty is not there. Corruption stems not from the society or from a party or from politics or from government - it stems from within us, each one of us due to our insecurities etc etc.

As Mastergaru says in the intro to Akkalkot Maharaj:  "For though he has tried different systems of politico-social cultures, the quality of the basic unit, the brick so to say, of these edifices, namely man, had been the same and in this fact he sees the inevitability of the relapse to a state of corruption and misery."

We have to change! And the best way to do it for humans is to have give right awareness and attitude in the early part of a kids life. The child should be strengthened enough to make the right decision, fully accepting the responsibility for his actions and therefore motivated to act in an extremely righteous way before they are made to see the dirt around them. Make them strong and let them free.

As Dwarakanathgaru says:

Quote
Developing as proper individuals, with an emphasis on character and strength and honesty and intelligence, is even more pressing. Without these, any other discussion falls apart and makes the individual stray away into mediocrity. And so, at a young age, say, till 18, kids should be concerned with the really important issues of Sadhana, Dharma and Seva.

supplements what Mastergaru says completely.

Jai Sai Master !



Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on September 06, 2010, 01:33:58 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Will be posting some of the Master's letters regarding pillala pempakam very very soon.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on September 07, 2010, 06:57:09 AM
Jai Sai Master.

Thank you very much Babu garu. It will be helpful to us and our kids. There is lot to learn from Mahatmas Teachings and fortunately Master gari Paarayana Books and many inspiring articles in Magazine are available for adults to read and practice.

As soon as we think of imparting good qualities in kids, we think of two things 1.Provide the best environment surrounding kids so that they pick up the right thinking and 2.Giving freedom to choose their path to become a mature and responsible adult. Surely it needs a lot of good thinking and determination. Guidance from Master gari letters will be very helpful.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Swayam on September 07, 2010, 10:53:40 AM
Jai Sai Master,

Can not agree more with you UttamPallavi garu.
Just like to add point.3 to your list, I think along with kids we also need to grow and change the
way we expect our kids to grow and change.these days when I scold my kid after sometime Iam wondering Baba/Mastergaru might be using exactly the same words and will be scolding me just the way I scolded my kid.

Jai Sai Master
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on September 07, 2010, 07:51:45 PM
Jai Sai Master!

From all of the teachings and things I have learnt, there are four important things in bringing up kids.

1. Respect - respecting kids by remembering that they too are humans, with thoughts, ideas, preferences, etc.
2. That kids always learn, they dont stop, its just that we stop to see what they are learning and think that they are not learning what we want to teach them. they might be learning something else which we dont realize.
3. Attention and care - One needs to show a lot attention and care. They grow best when they know that they are being attended to and cared for. Having some time to just talk, without the sense of correcting or educating, but just to talk and play, etc. with the kids, helps a lot.
4. Kids dont take the 'hidden clues' easily. What I mean is that they dont understand that some thing is bad unless you express it. And usually, even if you express it to them it is not enough. One has to express that ALONG with them.  Telling a kid that something is wrong or bad usually has less effect that saying that something is bad to others 'in general'.

I know that I have written those points very briefly. will write them in more detail in my next post.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: anssprasad on September 21, 2010, 05:36:24 AM
Hi

I am writing along the text of your  reply to make my comments more contextual.

Jai Sai Master!

Politics, as per the definition, stands as to mean 'collective decission making'. This necessarily does not mean the 'partisan politics' and 'governance' that we have today. Politics, in the social sense, for the welfare of everyone, must be taught to kids. But the current partisan politics is something i would not teach kids until they are around 20 yrs of age. And until they start seeing that parties cannot do more than a tiny weeny bit in terms of society and that people do more. I dont want the kids cribbing about bad politicians. Rather, I want them to be concerned about 'badly educated people'. And the improvement of the people should be taught as paramount, irrespective of the current form of governance, namely democracy, and the current state of partisan politics. And improvement of the people does not depend on the political system we have today.

I beg to differ. Improvement of people does depend on the political system. What if we are not a democracy? what if the country breaks into many pieces yielding to pressures of language, religion, and other extremist ideologies? what if you are not even allowed freedom of speech, religion etc. If you give a crop all that it needs and do not weed it from time to time do you think you will get a great yeild. What if the number of weeds is more than the useful plants. Will they not kill the useful plants. That is what will happen if we neglect what is happening around us. Democracy is a failure without people participation. That is what we are witnessing now in the country.

Corruption in politics and governance is not a moral issue. It is an institutional issue. Changing the institutional mechanisms wil bring an end to corruption. Hongkong was the most corrupt city in the world, but they could turn it around not by changing the mindsets of the people or improving them spiritually, but by changing the institutions.

I do agree that we have to do all the good work that you are leading now. But I would be dismayed if we too (who have high ideals) let our democracy fail by not participating in it. Gandhi was a Mahatma, though he did not hold any political position, he did say that "there is no religion without politics"

As I said earlier, depending on the current state of the society, kids (and people) should be thinking about what needs to be done, rather than what a particular government should do, nor about what a particular party would or should do. It would be very unfortunate to see too kids talking about whether a particular party should be elected or some other party. Particularly because, which ever party comes to power, the responsibility of each of us remains the same, and in all general and usual circumstances, what one needs to do remains the same. Rather, the kids should be talking about how each can contribute to the society and what aspects should be approached first, etc.

I unequivocally agree with what you say here. Our responsibility remains the same whichever party is in power. But I would like to bring to your notice the deeply present distortion in our thinking. Democratic politics is not about which party is in power. Politics is about governance. Good governance can only be made possible with the participation of people.  And it is the elite classes of India that needs to lead others in this effort.

Considering the fact that individuals must improve before the system could have sustainable improvement, current politics (im talking about the non-definition, partisan governance politics of the world) seem trivial. As I have explained earlier with the example of Hongkong I would request you to think about what I have said and let me know what could be flawed in my understanding.Caste based votes, religion based votes, financial supports and all the muck that is around make the governance largely ineffective in local spheres. This is because of centralization of power either with the CM, PM or the DMThe kids should be taught that unless the people are empowered and unless the people are developed into proper human-beings (with all the faculties such as thinking and feeling and understanding, etc. functioning at the optimum levels) no government could do much to the societyThis is kind of a chicken and egg problem. . Rather, its the people who have to get up and start working to improve the society, along with and if need be, inspite of the government.There are some things that the people cannot do anything about sir. Since "WE the people" have vested the elected governments with so much power and money if we do not ensure that they work in our best interests then it is tantamount to disregarding our resposibility as a citizen of the country.

From this point of view, the kids must first be taught what a human-being is and what a society is. And what service is. And what right living is. And what Mahatmas said and taught and how they lived. And what sciences say. Their characters should be built properly. Universal brotherhood must be taught along with national spirit. And they should be taught about social service, social conditions and duties and responsiblities as humans, since a very young age. And in all this, care must be taken that partisan politics are not discussed. But atleast why not discuss good politics.  History must be taught to kids, but not the history of politics and politicians, but history of the people. (which means, how peoples wants and needs developed and how societies and their conditions developed, inspite of and because of the political structures). And the kids should be taught that they must stand on their own two feet, and not depend on governments to provide them with incentives to be socially active. I totally agree.They must be taught, with a huge emphasis, that one need not get into governance at all in order to serve the society, and that in today's world, it is better to avoid getting into governance, unless one sees a strong point in favour of such a move. They must be taught how nationalism is subservient to humanity at large, and humanism is subservient to universalism (taking into consideration all the ecosystems, etc.) and that by being a part of a particular nation does not and should not interfere with one's own sense of one-ness with humanity at large. They should be reminded that no Mahatma ever entered politics, atleast in the present age. And that no Mahatma ever did support a particular party. They should be made to read Gandhi, Bhagatsingh and Subhash Bose and other such great leaders. They should be taught about the ideal forms of governance as prescribed in the scriptures. I agree with all you have written above. But why not teach them whom you should vote for irrespective of parites. They should know how to distinguish between the right and the wrong candidate. It is not because the people are bad we have this state of affairs in politics. It is because there are no incentives to be good. And we need to know how to create such incentives to be good and create a system that would punish the bad. In the best of my knowledge this is what krishna says when he said
"Yada yada hi dharmasya
Glanir bhavati bharata
Abhyutthanam adharmasya
Tadatmanam srjamy aham
Dont you  think so.

All the above must come first. Otherwise, there is a good chance that kids start falling to the false propagandas of the parties and the sillyness of the current state of politics and society. They must be trained to become reformers of the systems for the betterment of the society, not puppets. I for one, dont let my students (below the age of 30) to watch or discuss any of the current politics.  I dont approve the students of reading newspapers or watching news in TV. I rather let them discuss political theories, theories of democracy, marx's writings, etc. with a critical eye. But that too very rarely. We have a lot more work to do in a lot more spheres of life.

For eg., proper awareness of true spirituality among all the members of humanity, proper view point of health and education, etc. are more pressing. Developing as proper individuals, with an emphasis on character and strength and honesty and intelligence, is even more pressing. Without these, any other discussion falls apart and makes the individual stray away into mediocrity. And so, at a young age, say, till 18, kids should be concerned with the really important issues of Sadhana, Dharma and Seva Agree but I think they should not either be ignorant of how to right the wrongs in our society, one of which is politics..

Jai Sai Master!!

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Asterias on September 21, 2010, 08:59:55 AM
Jai Sai Master !

Dear Prasad garu

Here are my views on what you have commented.

Does improvement depend on political system? I ask does improvement depend on anything for that matter ? From situation to situation, the way in which improvement proceeds differs, but improvement in general is not situation dependent.

I ll give 2 examples of this:

1. Hong Kong Example: - HK did a complete turn around by limiting the corruption to a very low level. But one also needs to think about it in detail. In HK people were not initially opposed to corruption and being corrupted was accepted (Else why would it start flourishing?) However over the time, corruption became the norm and when a majority of citizens started getting affected, did they blow the whistle. And once they wanted to get rid of corruption ICAC (Independent Commission over corruption) was formed. It was not the other way round. There was a desire to be moral and ethically better which forced people to get over corruption and the result of this initiative was ICAC. And if you still go further, first police was made incharge of stopping corruption - but being neck deep, the need for an independent commission (with generous pays - so that they dont get corrupted) was decided. And even ICAC could not do much when policeforce striked to get amnesty from past crimes. Why was ICAC not able to do anything about it? Clearly public support was lacking.

2. Mahatma Gandhi in South Africa: - Have been reading "An Autobiography" by Mahatma Gandhi. In SA, Indians were treated as third class citizens and almost equivalent to slaves (atleast the indentured labours). They had almost no voting rights. Inspite of this, Gandhiji goes far to make them into a group (by making them forget that they are either hindus, muslims, or merchants, or from gujrat etc), so that they 'fight' as a unit. Now was there democracy in SA? No! But was there a collective consciousness raising? YES !!

An effective leader and the perfect 'gluing' agent - Mahatma Gandhi - did what was thought impossible.

--x--

I hope my interpretations are correct. Correct me if wrong.

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Raghuram on September 21, 2010, 07:49:19 PM
Jai saimaster!

Please be kind enough to forgive my comments as I've not gone through this conversation before commenting.

Does a system bring about change? Would the change in the environment bring about change in the people in it?

Say I have a system for my Kids. They are asked to follow the system. Initially there could be resistance, but sooner or later they might start following it. Things become amazingly easy for parents and the kids too through this. This is very good in the physical world.
I can make it part of the system to respect elders, not to steal things, not to beat others etc. The kids might implement this too. But what is in the kids mind? To respect others, to love others, it requires a 'fineness' in ones being. Cultivating this 'fineness' or 'sensitivity' is, I feel, not possile through system. In the psychological world there is jealousy, there is hatred etc in all of us. As long as basic 'thinking' does not change, any system, political or so called religious, cannot bring about change because current mind set will use the system in its own selfish way.

will type more...

jai saimaster!

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: anssprasad on September 21, 2010, 10:56:43 PM
Jai Sai Master !

Dear Prasad garu

Here are my views on what you have commented.

Does improvement depend on political system? I ask does improvement depend on anything for that matter ? From situation to situation, the way in which improvement proceeds differs, but improvement in general is not situation dependent. when we say improvement I would like to be more specific about it. I would like to classify them as spiritual improvement and material improvement. When Vivekananda said "First feed the poor and then take religion to them,  he meant that people who are famished are not going to heed to your sermons of spiritual improvement. Give them material necessities first and then go for your religious teachings. So here is evidence that even spiritual improvement depends on your material comforts like hunger, health, thirst and security. And to provide these and other basic necessities we depend on our governments. We need to go into a very lenghty discussion to understand the impact of governments on our daily necessities. For example due to the neglect of our government towards agriculture we have very high food prices, agriculture in jeopardy, farmers dont have any incentives to cultivate. What will we eat if this is allowed to perpetuate?

I ll give 2 examples of this:

1. Hong Kong Example: - HK did a complete turn around by limiting the corruption to a very low level. But one also needs to think about it in detail. In HK people were not initially opposed to corruption and being corrupted was accepted (Else why would it start flourishing?) However over the time, corruption became the norm and when a majority of citizens started getting affected, did they blow the whistle. And once they wanted to get rid of corruption ICAC (Independent Commission over corruption) was formed. It was not the other way round. There was a desire to be moral and ethically better which forced people to get over corruption and the result of this initiative was ICAC. And if you still go further, first police was made incharge of stopping corruption - but being neck deep, the need for an independent commission (with generous pays - so that they dont get corrupted) was decided. And even ICAC could not do much when policeforce striked to get amnesty from past crimes. Why was ICAC not able to do anything about it? Clearly public support was lacking.

Again the discussion comes back to individuals and their mindsets. Corruption is an institutional issue. It does not exist in institutions that are designed to be transparent, accountable and in a system that rewards the honest and punishes the corrupt. I am right now in the US. Here I follow each and every traffic rule, not because I suddenly became an angel of sorts. But because the system here works and I stand to lose if I jump a signal. In India it does not happen that way, so I dont care.

Also ICAC is a system designed by the elected representatives of the government. As a matter of fact what happens in India depends on a few powerful and influential people and not what the majority of the people think or desire. But the people can surely influence them by voicing their concerns through democratic means. Silence is considered as a sign of acceptance of the current conditions.
The bottom line here is that ICAC was a success in hongkong not withstanding its failings in particular. Its not about punishing each and every police who was previously involved in corruption, but to make them fear ICAC going forward, since in one sense they were also part of a system they had to work with it, since going against it did not have any incentives for them at that point of time.
2. Mahatma Gandhi in South Africa: - Have been reading "An Autobiography" by Mahatma Gandhi. In SA, Indians were treated as third class citizens and almost equivalent to slaves (atleast the indentured labours). They had almost no voting rights. Inspite of this, Gandhiji goes far to make them into a group (by making them forget that they are either hindus, muslims, or merchants, or from gujrat etc), so that they 'fight' as a unit. Now was there democracy in SA? No! But was there a collective consciousness raising? YES !!

An effective leader and the perfect 'gluing' agent - Mahatma Gandhi - did what was thought impossible. 
I more than agree with your point here. On the contrary it supports what I was trying to say, instead of refuting it. I said, similar to what Mahatma did in South Africa, we also need to build this collective consciousness. We need to raise our voice thru democratic means and the let the leaders hear us.

All I am trying to say is that the well to do people are the ones who can bring about change. Take for example any revolution, or independece movement. All of them were led by the elite class in their socities. Here by elite I mean those who have their minimum necessities to live a healthy life and those who are intellectually, strategically and ethically sound and those who had good education.

I am one of the fervent admirers of the Mahatma, one who did not hate the perpetrators of the attrocities against him and his fellow human beings. He also did not allow perpetrating violence against them inturn. But he did fight and he won.

We should all take his example in participating in social service which is not exclusive of politics.

--x--

I hope my interpretations are correct. Correct me if wrong.

Jai Sai Master !
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Raghuram on September 22, 2010, 12:31:06 PM
jai saimaster!

ok. What is todays problem in the society? We have wars between nations. We have wars between so called religions We have crimes of all sorts. Murders, thefts, corruption etc. We live in such a society.

Should we first understand why we are like this? What is wrong with us? And then see how the change can come about.
Should we discuss this? Is it important? If not ignore :)

jai saimaster!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: sudhakar on October 11, 2010, 08:28:25 PM
Dear gurubandhoos,

I have not gone through the thread but hope this post will not be out of context. I have heard the following some time back:

     | Laalayeth panchavarshani, dashavarshaani taadayeeth  |
|| Praapthethu shodashe varshe, putram mitravad aachareeth  ||

"Give unconditional love till 5th year. Discipline next 10 years. From 16th year onwards treat him as friend."

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on October 12, 2010, 03:27:19 AM
Jai Sai Master.

Very good words Sudhakar garu. Very true during our generation and even now.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: dpenubolu on October 12, 2010, 11:17:58 PM
Jai Sai Master!!!

I agree that system has to be reformed too.

But even before the system was created there were only human beings. Some where down the line the political system has developed. But the characteristics of the system (Whether political or other) is defined by the participants(People) in that system. If we can instill the right thinking and the right sanskaras in the kids, the system will be reformed eventually.

As Babu garu said in this thread in the initial posts,if we can change one generation of kids, that will follow onto next genarations. Eventually they will define the characterisitcs of the system in their generation. Even corruption in the system was not part of the system initially. It might have started with one person or a group of people involved in the system and eventually corrupted entire system eventually.

In this process we do need to tell them what is right or wrong in existing politics(parties or candidates) to the kids. But are we sure 100% that what we think is right or to put it other way around, "is there anything right in the present day politics?". All we are doing is we are choosing best of the worst. Democracy in our country is better only when compared to political system in other countries we know of. Nothing is perfect even in democratic countries.

The traffic system in US also has lots of problems (I am involved in the design and regulatory part of it). Everything is manipulated in some way or other. But only it is better compared to Indian traffic system. Total fatalities in US are much higher compared to India(Doesn't mean that Indian system is better). Corruption is rampant in US too, but at a different level in different methods.

We should reform ourselves and our families first and then we should educate the public about what is the right way of living. We shouldn't look for "Elite" to lead the public in India. Most of them became elite by suppressing the public and they have to choose whether to become elite or to contribute to the better society. In my opinion they can't co-exist.

There is plenty of good and bad politics involved in Mahabharatham if we can learn and explain to our kids. But all we can learn is to the level of our understanding which is again based on the way we read and saw the world  and what we were taught by our teachers based on their knowledge.

Hence we have to start somewhere and I felt Babu garu put it clearly in these few lines :?From this point of view, the kids must first be taught what a human-being is and what a society is. And what service is. And what right living is. And what Mahatmas said and taught and how they lived. And what sciences say. Their characters should be built properly. Universal brotherhood must be taught along with national spirit. And they should be taught about social service, social conditions and duties and responsiblities as humans, since a very young age. And in all this, care must be taken that partisan politics are not discussed. History must be taught to kids, but not the history of politics and politicians, but history of the people. (which means, how peoples wants and needs developed and how societies and their conditions developed, inspite of and because of the political structures). And the kids should be taught that they must stand on their own two feet, and not depend on governments to provide them with incentives to be socially active. They must be taught, with a huge emphasis, that one need not get into governance at all in order to serve the society, and that in today's world, it is better to avoid getting into governance, unless one sees a strong point in favour of such a move. They must be taught how nationalism is subservient to humanity at large, and humanism is subservient to universalism (taking into consideration all the ecosystems, etc.) and that by being a part of a particular nation does not and should not interfere with one's own sense of one-ness with humanity at large. They should be reminded that no Mahatma ever entered politics, atleast in the present age. And that no Mahatma ever did support a particular party. They should be made to read Gandhi, Bhagatsingh and Subhash Bose and other such great leaders. They should be taught about the ideal forms of governance as prescribed in the scriptures.?

I don?t know a thing about ideal forms of governance prescribed in our scriptures (Such is my ignorance) and I have to start to educate myself first if I want to tell my kids anything about that.

Jai Sai Master!!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on February 10, 2011, 02:45:24 AM
Jai Sai Master!

Dear prasadgaru,

Earlier, when I wrote, I wrote just from thinking and a half-baked understanding. I did not reply to your post because I understood that I need to think more on that issue to discuss it more constructively for improving understanding. Now, since then, I have thought more about it, and I have gained some practical experience regarding this issue. And I think I am better prepared to discuss it.

And, not surprisingly, i have not had to change my opinion regarding the political issue we were discussing. And, I KNOW (rather than think) that it is not a chicken and an egg problem. We can discuss this further if you are willing.

And may be, if the other members say so, we can discuss this in a seperate thread.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaimasterDevotee on February 11, 2011, 10:01:26 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Thankyou very much for bringing this thread back to life. :)

I read the article by our Ammagaru in january saibaba magazine, especially about family system(kutumba vyavasha)

Actually we started this thread(from the other thread) with a hope that we are ALL get some clarity about 'how to bring a better generation'. All of us are not fully satisfied with the way we are living right now, and we are doing that same mistake to our future generation too. Directly or indirectly we are ALL resposible for all the mess which is going on right now in our systems. Why dont we discuss our/your practical problems and help others to rectify them by bringing a perfect future citizens?? Can we discuss about our family system first?

just my opinion.

Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on February 18, 2011, 09:31:01 AM
Jai Sai Master.

It would be nice if we can discuss the practical problems Parents faces with kids related to the moral values. There are two aspects to it. One is how are we doing and how we should be. These are the facts that are there infront of us. And our kids are there and the world is there as a playground infront of them. Do we allow them to play freely and learn from the world or we try to guide them with whatever we learnt from our own success and failures and what we learn from Paarayana, the ultimate truth given by Mahatmas. We know how much we struggle with our speech and action in day to day life. How can we encourage the kids to pick up the right spirit?

Another factor we can discuss is when we look at each other someone speaks and acts with confidence and someone speaks and acts with an attitude, complexity. Mostly we ourselves finds a mix up of both good and bad like the seasons, like the day's fluctuations. We notice how the early morning is always bright and brings great thoughts to us and darkness in the night is opposite to it. There are many experimental studies conducted related to performance of employees versus the amount of light they have in their working place. Did we read this in Vignana Veechikalu or our class books? Do not remember correctly. But they prove an employee who works in bright light performs better than others who work in mild environments. Too much of light is also did not give good results. We are thinking of these kind of factors that may make the kids to develop the right spirit. Similarly food habits, right Teachers, right friends during the early age of the kids, right school etc. encourage one to become a wonderful adult.

Love to listen from all about how are you planning for your kids. Swayam garu, how is your son doing? Is he asking more questions. I treasure one thing I learnt from my Father is taking me to our Village during the holidays and allowing me to stay with the elders. My father used to drop us at the Village and used to come back to pick us up. I really can share for days and days about my childhood days (who doesnt want share hahaha..) spent with my Grand Parents, Chinnammalu,Chinnnannalu, Peddammalu,Pedda Nannalu,Vadinalu,Annaiahlu. Can we ever give this much happiness to the kids? We did not have TV those days in our village and naturally we used to have plenty of time during the day. One of the posts Sudhakar garu has shared some time back has really brought tears. That was one of the posts we remember for ever from here. How can we give those days back to this generation who are flooded with happiness in a different way from TV, Internet, phones which doesnt give much time for anyone else. Sounds like a good dream?

It's quiet some time we said hello to all. Jai Sai Master. Looks forward to listen from others.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Ananth on February 18, 2011, 12:43:21 PM
Jai Sai Master, Babu garu..
Jai Sai Master, Sai Bandhus..

Dearest Babu garu, my pranamas to you. It's been a while that I am on the forum Babu garu. So many days and months, so many mixed feelings, so many ups and downs, and practically speaking, so many kilometers travelling through... :-) since the last one year.

Among the many trials that I undertook, looking for a materialistic break from the problems that I faced, one thing remained constant. The invisible hand of Baba and Master garu leading me through thick and thin, and the direct blessings of Amma garu and Sri Chaitanya Swamy. The problems kept changing but never THEIR BLESSINGS. It is beyond my capability to explain in words THEIR blessings and their never-ending guidance Babu garu that I am forever indebted to THEM.

Dearest UttamPallavi garu, Jai Sai Master!!! Lovely to see your post. I, being a father of two, one is 7 and the other is 2, can say this for sure. They follow in the footsteps of their Parents. Atleast that's what I observed most of the times. But I have the same set of questions Uttam garu. And the same set of comments that you gave. A general concensus among all of us, atleast in our forum is that, the previous generation is turning out to be better one than the latest one. Somehow, the negativities are creeping in, with the way we are raising them, the way they are exposed to the society (the internet, the friends @ school, the tv, the online games, and not to forget, the low quality of food they eat).

Last week I was speaking to a teacher here in my daughter's school (in Canada). The teacher was around 50 years of age. I was chatting with her. She said her kids (now aged 30 and 28) never spent time inside. Mostly they were out, even on a cold day with -30 centigrade. Today, I talk to these kids and they dont want to wait outside and play in the playground saying it is too cold and that they want to play on their "nintendo"....all this when the temperature was only -3 centigrade.

I was just thinking, except the time difference, there was nothing else that I could differentiate between the teacher's sons and the kids of today, namely "my daughter's classmates". To start with, I have sold off my TV last year and then I did not buy a new one. My next step is to get my daughter out into the fresh air, stop her from using the internet (atleast most of the times...when she wants to watch a Sri Krishna on Youtube and to watch some craft-making...but I know it is a matter of time before she will figure out how to watch movies and how to chat).

One other thing that is helping me a lot is the simplicity of Master's books like Sai Leelamrutam. We are trying our best to teach her through real-world examples, all the points discussed in Sai Leelamrutam. They ask a world of questions mostly we can't answer.

But in all this, one thing I am afraid is, they are OR they will be confused when they start growing up. Ofcourse, this is only my guess. I am guessing, there will come a point when they ask themselves, "do I follow what my parents told me or do I try what my classmates are doing" and that's where your statement is more resounding. How can we encourage our kids to pick up the right spirit? For example, we teach them about the negatitivies of being "Stubborn" or "angry" and that we should learn not to do it and that it is bad if we do it. But I could also see their temptation. They go out and they might end up seeing more constantly that being stubborn gives them what they want, so why not????

These are just some of my thoughts Babu garu, Uttam garu.

Babu garu, some other questions that I have are......

1) how do I teach my kids from home affectively while they are giong to the "regular school" ?

2) is there a possibility for them to see an amalgamation between the two theories? I am asking purely from a viewpoint of North American education. But I welcome other forum members (parents) who are in India to share their thoughts about the acheivement of unity between the spirituality-based teaching that we "try" to impart and the regular education that they go through, which is getting ridiculous day by day and year by year. There is a clear daylight difference between what they learn from under the guidance of someone like BABUGARU, and what they learn in a regular school. The sheer volume of work and the stupidity levels of what they learn (do they ??) in a regular school is already discussed in this forum, I believe.

3) Babu garu, is it even practically possible for you to guide us(at this time when You are busy with so many important things) in designing/following a curriculum for an appropirate age which the kids can ease themselves into while actively attending a regular school? I know my question sounds stupid Babu garu, something like "Good and Bad cannot travel on the same horse" but I am helpless to put this question in any other perspective. It is practically not possible to do a home schooling here but at the same time, I am a personal witness to kids' learning capabilities and the good things that they grasp and do, when they go the way that you have specified so many times on this forum and also the tips provided by Master garu, Amma garu, and You. When I have seen such a positive aspect in kids, I could not withstand myself from asking this question.....that of attending a regular school and yet follow Master's way.

4) Or is it not possible at all to do?

I hope my post is not a mumbo jumbo to the forum members....

Best regards to all,
Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Raghuram on February 20, 2011, 04:17:10 PM
jai saimaster!

I really did not want to write anything in the forum till i'm free from few things going on with me.
However, i want to post this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wupToqz1e2g
Few words by an astronomer, astrophysicist, cosmologist about a pale blue dot, you and me.

jai saimaster!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: ajay on February 20, 2011, 06:09:23 PM
jai sai master
                      raghu all the happenning's with you will be solved and what ever may happen that will be good and which is deceided by baba and i think the video has said alot about your writings and  iam with you
                                                                     :)
                                                                 jai sai master
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on February 26, 2011, 06:08:29 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Dear Ananth garu, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. We are almost thinking in the way you have expressed the below points:

Quote
One other thing that is helping me a lot is the simplicity of Master's books like Sai Leelamrutam. We are trying our best to teach her through real-world examples, all the points discussed in Sai Leelamrutam. They ask a world of questions mostly we can't answer.

This is very valuable as one way Kids will know about Baba, Master garu and other way helps them through out their life to face the world. Could you please share your initial experiences about teaching your daughter to read Telugu. Did you teach by your self(and your family members) at home or took any help from Teachers outside. If possible, please explain about how many hours you have devoted for teaching Telugu and any practical problems you would have faced while teaching. Looking for ideas that made your daughter happy while learning.

We strongly believe as Parents, the best gifts we can give to Kids is Master gari Books and helping them to read Telugu. We are thinking of making this exercise as fun filled so that Kids will enjoy it learning. Thinking of using board and write just one word every day like 'Shraddha' surrounded by lot of funny pictures related or unrelated to the word and encourage Kid to involve in it. Followed by another word 'Saburi' next day or next week or next month depending on how the Kids learn it. It need not be straight from the Books but want to take essence of what Master garu taught us and make it such a way Kids will learn the message of it. Tatya's story from the current edition of Magazine has a beautiful message about love, respect and Patience. If we draw some pictures and explain to the Kids about the stories may make the Kids find it more fun with some good learning. And Music always makes Kids happy. Thinking of some ideas that makes learning more interesting. Just started thinking of some better ideas.

Guru Bandhus, we are very sure many of you should have tried many ways of teaching your Children. Please share any ideas that made your kids happy and enjoyable.

Quote
But in all this, one thing I am afraid is, they are OR they will be confused when they start growing up. Ofcourse, this is only my guess. I am guessing, there will come a point when they ask themselves, "do I follow what my parents told me or do I try what my classmates are doing" and that's where your statement is more resounding. How can we encourage our kids to pick up the right spirit? For example, we teach them about the negatitivies of being "Stubborn" or "angry" and that we should learn not to do it and that it is bad if we do it. But I could also see their temptation. They go out and they might end up seeing more constantly that being stubborn gives them what they want, so why not?Huh

This is very important and the age of 10-25 years is crucial as they start exposing to the world more than Parents. Current generation as we find is given with both good and bad. From the Human inventions of Internet and TV, Parents may become secondary to Kids. As Parents we have our responsibility to give good foundation so that Kids will help themselves and fellow Citizens. This includes good manners, Kindness towards themselves and fellow beings and also a good career so that they live on their own feet.

We invite all Guru Bandhus to share your ideas and experiences.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Swayam on February 26, 2011, 08:40:12 PM
Jai Sai Master.


Love to listen from all about how are you planning for your kids. Swayam garu, how is your son doing? Is he asking more questions. .........How can we give those days back to this generation who are flooded with happiness in a different way from TV, Internet, phones which doesnt give much time for anyone else. Sounds like a good dream?

It's quiet some time we said hello to all. Jai Sai Master. Looks forward to listen from others.

Jai Sai Master.

Jai SaiMaster

SaiUttamPallavi garu,

Thank you, yes he is doing fine. Yes he asks tons of questions.
Offlate he was asking since Hanuman is strong and is RAma's devotee why he has to fly over the sea, can't
he just cross it in one step !!.
This reminds me of the Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa's anecdote(taken from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna)

"There is a popular saying that Hanuman jumped over the sea through his faith in Rama's name, Rama Himself
had to build a bridge".

Well I explained him howmuch ever powerful a God is, during their avataar they never broke the laws of nature.
Iam not sure Iam correct though.

Regarding telling about Baba's and Mastergari leelas, I start from the last chapters of SaiLeelamrutam.
I explain leelas like how Baba used to save many devotees from their troubles/diseases.
How some devotees used to come to Baba and before even they ask anything their troubles are solved.
Also the leelas from AsritaKalpavriksham.

There are 10-12 story books(comes as one pack) on Swami Vivekananda and tales told by Sri Ramakrishna.
These days Iam reading out stories from them.

Jai SaiMaster
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on February 27, 2011, 10:55:22 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Swayamgaru, great work. Keep it up. Also, tell him that Hanuman really did 'step over' but for on-lookers, the step was so big that it looked like a huge jump. :) Also, its a great opportunity to explain him the relativeness of perception, that is, things look big or small based on our size, etc. Watch the edinijam videos on youtube if you need some ideas in explaining this.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Swayam on March 07, 2011, 09:21:43 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Swayamgaru, great work. Keep it up. Also, tell him that Hanuman really did 'step over' but for on-lookers, the step was so big that it looked like a huge jump. :) Also, its a great opportunity to explain him the relativeness of perception, that is, things look big or small based on our size, etc. Watch the edinijam videos on youtube if you need some ideas in explaining this.

Jai Sai Master!!

Jai SaiMaster

Thanks Babugaru.Thanks for the reference to EdiNijam.

Jai SaiMaster
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on July 07, 2011, 11:29:58 PM
Hi

I am writing along the text of your  reply to make my comments more contextual.

Jai Sai Master!

Politics, as per the definition, stands as to mean 'collective decission making'. This necessarily does not mean the 'partisan politics' and 'governance' that we have today. Politics, in the social sense, for the welfare of everyone, must be taught to kids. But the current partisan politics is something i would not teach kids until they are around 20 yrs of age. And until they start seeing that parties cannot do more than a tiny weeny bit in terms of society and that people do more. I dont want the kids cribbing about bad politicians. Rather, I want them to be concerned about 'badly educated people'. And the improvement of the people should be taught as paramount, irrespective of the current form of governance, namely democracy, and the current state of partisan politics. And improvement of the people does not depend on the political system we have today.

I beg to differ. Improvement of people does depend on the political system. What if we are not a democracy? what if the country breaks into many pieces yielding to pressures of language, religion, and other extremist ideologies? what if you are not even allowed freedom of speech, religion etc. If you give a crop all that it needs and do not weed it from time to time do you think you will get a great yeild. What if the number of weeds is more than the useful plants. Will they not kill the useful plants. That is what will happen if we neglect what is happening around us. Democracy is a failure without people participation. That is what we are witnessing now in the country.

Corruption in politics and governance is not a moral issue. It is an institutional issue. Changing the institutional mechanisms wil bring an end to corruption. Hongkong was the most corrupt city in the world, but they could turn it around not by changing the mindsets of the people or improving them spiritually, but by changing the institutions.

I do agree that we have to do all the good work that you are leading now. But I would be dismayed if we too (who have high ideals) let our democracy fail by not participating in it. Gandhi was a Mahatma, though he did not hold any political position, he did say that "there is no religion without politics"

As I said earlier, depending on the current state of the society, kids (and people) should be thinking about what needs to be done, rather than what a particular government should do, nor about what a particular party would or should do. It would be very unfortunate to see too kids talking about whether a particular party should be elected or some other party. Particularly because, which ever party comes to power, the responsibility of each of us remains the same, and in all general and usual circumstances, what one needs to do remains the same. Rather, the kids should be talking about how each can contribute to the society and what aspects should be approached first, etc.

I unequivocally agree with what you say here. Our responsibility remains the same whichever party is in power. But I would like to bring to your notice the deeply present distortion in our thinking. Democratic politics is not about which party is in power. Politics is about governance. Good governance can only be made possible with the participation of people.  And it is the elite classes of India that needs to lead others in this effort.

Considering the fact that individuals must improve before the system could have sustainable improvement, current politics (im talking about the non-definition, partisan governance politics of the world) seem trivial. As I have explained earlier with the example of Hongkong I would request you to think about what I have said and let me know what could be flawed in my understanding.Caste based votes, religion based votes, financial supports and all the muck that is around make the governance largely ineffective in local spheres. This is because of centralization of power either with the CM, PM or the DMThe kids should be taught that unless the people are empowered and unless the people are developed into proper human-beings (with all the faculties such as thinking and feeling and understanding, etc. functioning at the optimum levels) no government could do much to the societyThis is kind of a chicken and egg problem. . Rather, its the people who have to get up and start working to improve the society, along with and if need be, inspite of the government.There are some things that the people cannot do anything about sir. Since "WE the people" have vested the elected governments with so much power and money if we do not ensure that they work in our best interests then it is tantamount to disregarding our resposibility as a citizen of the country.

From this point of view, the kids must first be taught what a human-being is and what a society is. And what service is. And what right living is. And what Mahatmas said and taught and how they lived. And what sciences say. Their characters should be built properly. Universal brotherhood must be taught along with national spirit. And they should be taught about social service, social conditions and duties and responsiblities as humans, since a very young age. And in all this, care must be taken that partisan politics are not discussed. But atleast why not discuss good politics.  History must be taught to kids, but not the history of politics and politicians, but history of the people. (which means, how peoples wants and needs developed and how societies and their conditions developed, inspite of and because of the political structures). And the kids should be taught that they must stand on their own two feet, and not depend on governments to provide them with incentives to be socially active. I totally agree.They must be taught, with a huge emphasis, that one need not get into governance at all in order to serve the society, and that in today's world, it is better to avoid getting into governance, unless one sees a strong point in favour of such a move. They must be taught how nationalism is subservient to humanity at large, and humanism is subservient to universalism (taking into consideration all the ecosystems, etc.) and that by being a part of a particular nation does not and should not interfere with one's own sense of one-ness with humanity at large. They should be reminded that no Mahatma ever entered politics, atleast in the present age. And that no Mahatma ever did support a particular party. They should be made to read Gandhi, Bhagatsingh and Subhash Bose and other such great leaders. They should be taught about the ideal forms of governance as prescribed in the scriptures. I agree with all you have written above. But why not teach them whom you should vote for irrespective of parites. They should know how to distinguish between the right and the wrong candidate. It is not because the people are bad we have this state of affairs in politics. It is because there are no incentives to be good. And we need to know how to create such incentives to be good and create a system that would punish the bad. In the best of my knowledge this is what krishna says when he said
"Yada yada hi dharmasya
Glanir bhavati bharata
Abhyutthanam adharmasya
Tadatmanam srjamy aham
Dont you  think so.

All the above must come first. Otherwise, there is a good chance that kids start falling to the false propagandas of the parties and the sillyness of the current state of politics and society. They must be trained to become reformers of the systems for the betterment of the society, not puppets. I for one, dont let my students (below the age of 30) to watch or discuss any of the current politics.  I dont approve the students of reading newspapers or watching news in TV. I rather let them discuss political theories, theories of democracy, marx's writings, etc. with a critical eye. But that too very rarely. We have a lot more work to do in a lot more spheres of life.

For eg., proper awareness of true spirituality among all the members of humanity, proper view point of health and education, etc. are more pressing. Developing as proper individuals, with an emphasis on character and strength and honesty and intelligence, is even more pressing. Without these, any other discussion falls apart and makes the individual stray away into mediocrity. And so, at a young age, say, till 18, kids should be concerned with the really important issues of Sadhana, Dharma and Seva Agree but I think they should not either be ignorant of how to right the wrongs in our society, one of which is politics..

Jai Sai Master!!



Jai Sai Master!

Strange and delightful to see Master's ideas as given in Amruta Lekhavali regarding this :
http://www.saibharadwaja.org/books/readbook.aspx?book=16&page=140

Jai Sai Master!!

P.S. Before we write off politics as a no-no, i suggest we wait. I am going to post something that Master wrote which might address it aptly.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Ananth on July 08, 2011, 02:49:17 AM
Jai Sai Master, Babu garu..
Jai Sai Master, Sai Bandhus..

Quote
Corruption in politics and governance is not a moral issue. It is an institutional issue. Changing the institutional mechanisms wil bring an end to corruption.

First of all, my apologies for barging into the middle of a great conversation. Don't have that much of a thought-process to contribute to this dialogue. But just a few points that I wanted to share.

How do the institutional mechanisms come into existence to end the corruption? Let's work it backwards.

End of Corruption.
Because of Institutional mechanism.....
Institutional mechanism came into existence because of?????

I think one answer that I can give is morality, humanity, knowledge, love. For an ideal institution to exist, we need such factors to play a dominant role (NATURALLY..not by force). Why would I do something good for a society, as a politician? Why? The only reason I will do good is when I feel a genuine love for the people, a genuine compassion (do unto others what you want the others do to you). If not, other ways I will do good to a society is because of greed (for power, for money, for the fear of loss of my chair) or bigotry or sectarian religionism. The second set of reasons do not stand the test of time. History is a big proof. Eventually, as Mater points out, there comes a time, when that good deed done out of second set of values comes to an end, voilently, if necessary.

So, I for one, would definitely think that it is a moral issue. Because of lack of morality is why we are seeing the current state of political system.

On the other hand, just like Master discussed, we CAN bring an end to corruption by forcibly institutionalizing a set of rules and forcing them upon people, and for some time, it will become a success. BUT.....Not for long. And just like Master pointed out, that is the reason why some ideal theories like Marxism, Communism etc remained just theories...NOT much success...and not for long.....although looking IDEAL...

Quote
I do agree that we have to do all the good work that you are leading now. But I would be dismayed if we too (who have high ideals) let our democracy fail by not participating in it. Gandhi was a Mahatma, though he did not hold any political position, he did say that "there is no religion without politics"

I do agree that we all should participate in politics but the context here is for the next generation's upbringing wherein, it is (in my view) detrimental to bring them on to the study of politics without fundamental LIFE LESSONS. And Fundamental life lessons can only be learned over time. Not at a budding stage.

Quote
Hong kong was the most corrupt city in the world, but they could turn it around not by changing the mindsets of the people or improving them spiritually, but by changing the institutions.

I am really sorry but I beg to differ sir. Part one: My answer goes back to forced institutionalization. Hong Kong is a very young country. It was ruled by British for many centuries. Always rife with anger and chinese patriotism. British ruled it with a "beg-borrow-steal" mechanism but never with love for the Hong Kong people. And now, finally China got it.... but again, there are internal politics and bikkerings. Have you ever observed? Every once in a while, people of China, some select group of people of China try to touch the limits of its government by shouting "Democracy". Immediately, Chinese government will give a iron hand to those group of people, either by brute force or by other inescapable rules and if all else fails, then....by death. 1000s and 1000s of people who cried "democracy" are dead because of this reason. Tiananmen Square massacre is only one such which came to light. And it is the same reason China was a perpetuator of dictatorship on Tibet always trying to root out Buddhism. Hong Kong is at the centre of such a storm not just now but even while in British Rule also.

Part Two: The so called "end of corruption" is a veiled term especially for Hong Kong. I really do not want to go to the statistics side of it, but Hong Kong is the first country to have the toughest laws in the world for persons who carry drugs. But at the same time, it is the highest grosser of illegal drug sale in west asia. This is only the tip of the iceberg.

Hong Kong has several faces shown to the world and each face is in serious trouble. One, the drugs. Two, a common man being grinded on and on and on and on. Three, there are people who want democracy instead of Chinese authority. I am not talking about minor 1000 people out of a 10 million population but a really good chunk of people. Four, the corporations took over the democracy. In my view, the last one is a troubling aspect to many countries, both democratic and otherwise. So, I definitely rank Hong Kong as not the "ended all corruption" country. Just a couple paisa worth of my thoughts.

Quote
I agree with all you have written above. But why not teach them whom you should vote for irrespective of parites. They should know how to distinguish between the right and the wrong candidate. It is not because the people are bad we have this state of affairs in politics. It is because there are no incentives to be good. And we need to know how to create such incentives to be good and create a system that would punish the bad.

Instead, why not teach them how to vote and what to look for in voting? Why teach them whom they should vote? Master garu pointed out somewhere about a unique aspect of Vedas. That it teaches a spiritual aspirant the context of Vedas more than who wrote the context while actively acknowledging and understanding the greatness of the context writer.

In the same way, let's teach them Gandhiji's principles, but let's not teach them whom to vote. This way, let's say the kids learn of Gandhi's 10 principles but they find only 3 such in a current politician, they tend to compare. What about other principles? For that to happen, they need to LEARN those principles. Not who created those principles. Let them create a choice for themselves. That is called true freedom. But in order for them to choose, their minds should not be young and tender. That is the age where they grasp the secrets of the universe with such an open mind. Because politics is only part of a larger picture, why not go even more fundamental for their learning?

And also sir, why should we need incentives to be good? to do good and to think good? The more I think about this, the more I strongly feel that When we expect an incentive, the value of a "good" will fall down several notches. An example is the sports. Master says we feel near-absolute bliss when we play sports because, we dont expect anything in return. Why? Such bliss can only be achieved if we dont expect aynthing....well...atleast many of the things (because we are only human!!)

Just as an end note sir, I am not against whatever you said. But regarding kids, and the present state of political immaturity, we need several factors like universal brotherhood, love, sacrifice, impartial knowledge and many other things which Babu garu has already pointed out.... to make a kid grow into a responsible human being. And I am almost sure that we will only be over-killing the geese with the introduction of politics/news/media into a kids life. And one final side note: Although I typed all the above, I am slipping up from my own responsibility from time to time. But I dont want to give up sir. For me, my kid trying to hold her anger against her classmates, trying to share her toys with other kids, trying to be fearless if she has not committed any mistake, daringly observing the world of people, and observing the nature of inanimate things, doing parayana of mahatmas charitras and TRYING to implement the same in real world, performing yoga-asanas, trying to be brave in mind inspite of being physically weak.... all these are great factors for my kid to be more healthy physically, mentally, and spiritually and it places her in a perfect position to learn in the future what is good and what is bad, and to choose who is a good administrator and who is a bad one, for the country.

My sincerest apologies if this post offended anybody.
Best Regards,
Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Swayam on December 31, 2011, 02:12:27 PM
Jai SaiMaster

From Nov'11 Saibaba Mag - మనము అసలు ఎందుకు చదువుకోవాలి

... గురుకృపకు మానవుడు అర్హుడుకావాలంటే వాడికి మంచి సంస్కారము ఇవ్వాలి. ఇది తల్లితండ్రుల కర్తవ్యం .......

...వెనుకటికాలంలోలాగా తల్లితండ్రులు తమ బిడ్డలను ఉత్తమంగా సంస్కరించుకొనడమొక్కటే తమ ప్రధాన కర్తవ్యంగా జీవించగలిగితేనే పిల్లలకిట్టి సంస్కారం కలుగుతుంది.

బిడ్డలను ఉత్తమ సంస్కారవంతులుగా తీర్చిదిద్ది సమాజానికందించడమే తమ ధ్యేయంగా  తల్లితండ్రులు జీవించగలిగితే గానీ సమాజంలో ఉత్తములైన గురువులు, శిష్యులు, జ్ఞానసముపార్జన  అనేవి వుండజాలవు.


Bringing up kids is like god giving 'another' chance to parents to relive their life this time in a more better way. How much well equipped we should be to carry out this task !!!. May Master bless us all to carry out this responsibilities in best possible way

Jai SaiMaster
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: dpenubolu on January 25, 2012, 11:06:58 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Copying couple of posts of Babugaru from Vignana Veechikalu thread  to this one since they are related to this topic. Thought it will be good for whoever want to reference this thread in the future. I don't know if there is better way to link those posts to this thread. It's a request for moderators to do that if it can be done and remove this post.

Jai Sai Master!

"Jai Sai Master!

Here, one has to consider a bit of child psychology and commonsense.  Kids, before they are taught to critisize and doubt, must be encouraged to understand and inquire. There is a difference between 'doubting' and 'inquiring'. Inquiring starts with an open mind, where as doubting starts in the negative. Many kids, owing to the conflicting environments that they are living in, are more towards 'doubting' than 'inquiring'.

The kid requires to get an optimistic and positive view of life, before getting into understanding its dubious and negative. Hence, it is important to instill 'belief' in the kids to the extent that they respectfully inquire later on, rather than value thier own inquiry over the facts given by Mahatmas. There is a thin line here, between dogma and belief.

One instance might serve best here, in this context. Vedavathi, my sister, told me this. Once she said that she was not bowing down to Baba. She said that to Master Himself, saying "why should I?" Master immediately put her down (He was carrying her) and said "I have nothing do with you if you dont bow down to Baba. You can leave the house and life your own life." And He said that quite strongly, and even gave her a gentle slap. He appeared quite upset and angry to her. She bowed to Baba and then Master picked her up again, cajoled her, and spent the whole day making her happy.
He was very very caring to her, and she used to be with Him always, even sleeping on His legs during satsang everyday. Their bond of love was formed first, which was used by Master to teach her the importance and the gravity of the issue.

Many people get confused here and thing that 'questioning' is equal to 'doubting'. It is very hard, even for adults, to understand why we should pray. There are no immediate effects (unless one trains to watch one's own mind and the world around with particular intensity - that is when it is obvious) to be seen, and it is hard to understand its importance. Same with other forms of sadhana and parayana. One has to be quite a while into it, before one learns to observe the effects. Hence, kids, when they question, need to be told constantly that it needs to be 'inquired into' for better understanding, while at the same time, they must be reminded of the limited nature of one's own (and their) intelligence and its limits to inquire. Thus, they must be encouraged to improve themselves to better understand.

Also, another confusion here arises over whether we are creating 'dogma'. 'Dogma' is already created in each and everyone, and in all other walks of life, it is considered 'education'. For eg., 'respect elders' is a dogma, but it is seen as good manners. And when you think about it, it is good education. Similarly, here, a mild form of dogma is created in the child (which acts as a protection from other dogmas that pervade society - like money is all important, fame is all important, etc.) And then, the child is given enough tools to break that dogma when he/she is capable and responsible, and gain better understanding.

One has to answer the questions of kids without fail, and when one cant, and "when in doubt - Mahatmas are correct" is the attitude that needs to be cultivated.

Jai sai Master!"

"Regarding curriculum, start with stories. Panchatantra, Mahatma's leelas, Sadguru leelas, Ramayana, etc.  The key here is to encourage the kid to tell the story to us and everybody, after we repeat it for him/her a few times. Telling it in different languages is very useful as with the kids repeating.
Secondly, the more languages they are exposed to when they are between 0 - 6 years of age, the more easily they will grasp them later on. Key is the first two years in this respect.
Third, Slokas, read to them to metre - both sanskrit and telugu. Vemana shatakam, sumati shatakam, pedda baala siksha, Master E.K.'s Bharatiya baala siksha, are especially useful.  Moral stories in english are great.

Focus on devotion at an early age is really important, while at the same time, focusing on 'deductive' and 'assimilation' forms of logic in answering questions, helping the kids deduct things themselves, etc. are crucial. Teaching the kids, right from age 3, to start taking care of themselves and others, as part of the daily routine, is another important facet.  Lots of sports, physical activity, real activity (as opposed to lego construction type activity) are required. Helping out in real gardening, or household chores goes a long way.  Fear of work and fear of injury are the two most things that need to be driven out of the kid's psyche. Also, taking things lightly, not making too much of losses, etc. is something that needs to be carefully cultivated, while at the same time, achievement and victory must be encouraged for inspiring spirit and confidence in the child.

Daily 5 mins of silence in the morning and evening, before and after prayer, will be great starting points in teaching the kid to be 'comfortable' with themselves (and go a long way in removing weakness for gossip and company). Daily exercise, for the sake of health, early in the age, teaches them the importance of health.

TV and movies, and internet too - in most cases, is the mother of all vices. It makes the kid intellectually lazy and an intellectually and spiritually cowardly. It pumps information in, without any effort from the kid to learn that. It decreases attention capacity and retention capacity. Best is to avoid them, till the kid is about 15 yrs old. It should simply and if required, 'bluntly', banned from the kid's daily routine. The kids must be told that it is cowardice, neglect and plain and simple wrong, to 'entertain' oneself while there is so much that needs to be done in terms of service to the others and in terms of learning. Strong words may be employed, such as "losers waste their time like that", and "watching tv is for dishonest people", etc. must be used initially to keep the kids clearly away from that. Once an appropriate age is reached, we can teach the benefits of mass media, and the way to utilize them.

They must not be given free information. They must be made to work for it. They must develop the natural confidence of 'learning' for themselves. So bombarding them with information is not only useless, it is detrimental.

A peaceful, calm environment, with vedic chanting (not the musical nonsense thats available in stores, but proper people reading properly) being the first thing they listen to for 10 minutes after they take bath. They should be woken up gently and never with a raised voice. They must be woken up by tapping on their feet (not on their faces or body) gently. Things like brushing and taking bath at the same time, must be taught to them as time savers. Encouraging cold water baths when appropriate steels their body. Taking bath in lakes, sea and rivers and other natural bodies, enlivens and invigorates their life force. Deep and relaxed breathing must be encouraged. Martial arts must be taught without the 'competition' side of them, with focus on breath and body awareness.  Play-acting and role-playing must be encouraged.

They must be taught to offer everything to God and to partake of it only after doing so. They must be taken to places of worship, preferably of various religions. They must be toured to holy places.

They must not be allowed to sleep in the day after attaining 3 years of age. They must not be made to sit for long hours at a time, even for studies or prayer. They must be taught to behave responsibly, and hence, they must be given responsibilities without the threats of failure. Responsibilities such as taking care of younger ones, or arranging plates for the family dinner, etc. must be given to them. And if they fail in fulfilling them, or if they go wrong, they must be encouragingly and gently corrected, without the feeling of superiority or inferiority. That is, when correcting them, there should not be 'it is so because i told you so' attitude.

A strong bond with the community around, and with one's own nation, must be built. Tales of freedom fighters and great souls like Gandhi must be taught. Tales of dispassion, vairagya, must be told. Tales of Swami Vivekananda and such renunciates must be taught in exalted tones. Tales of heroism must be taught. Proper role models are to be given to them, so that they don?t get into having corporate or film personalities as role models. Sharing must be encouraged and taught, and if needed, gently enforced. Value of things must be taught for the value they have, not for how much they cost in money. That is, 'if toy breaks, we cannot play with it' is the thing that needs to be taught, rather than don?t break it. Its costly'.

Painting, drawing and gentle classical music must be given to them so that it soothes them, rather than the pacy rock and role kind of music. They can have their own choice of music as they grow up, but bad lyrics must be discouraged in strong words.

More later on!"

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on February 05, 2012, 06:35:32 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Uttam said

Quote
We have been thinking about feeding our son and it is as usual tough  Smiley. Sometimes we both think we may be asking him too much that too thrice a day. We are convinced now that it is fundamentally necessary because he has to grow as a healthy boy. We keep doing our duty every day with all the fun and tactfulness.

Asterias garu mentioned

Quote
Dear Uttam garu, I am not really sure, if its good to 'force' feed. Probably we can put this question up on Kids Section !! As far as i know, EK garu suggests otherwise.

Asterias garu, it is just timely help. Honestly we are learning great lessons from our son. Usually we adults teach kids. But in our case it is other way round. Our son is two and half years old. He is at the right height and weight. We have the tendency to make sure he eats full. We are trying all kinds of tricks with singing, dancing, showing dramas, telling stories what not. We have not switched on the TV yet. But we do put some downloaded kids Telugu rhymes over our laptop. Somehow we do have that feeling we might be forcing our loving son to eat. Worst is some times I scare him ha my due apologies. I am an idiot to do that. It may be my swabhavam. I felt apologetic couple of times for my behavior. My son is intelligent. Sometimes when I starts scolding he shows me Baba. Master garu,Amma garu. I feel horrible when I try to force him to eat. Pallavi is kind. I request her to take over the feeding part. She also becomes helpless sometimes and calls my help my bad help. I enter like a big villain.

I am bad only at the time of feeding.  :) I try my best to tell lots of stories and with my singing skills. Sometimes poor kid closes his ears.  :)

Please share EK gari suggestions. Dear parents, feel free to share your suggestions.

Thanks for your help.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on February 05, 2012, 08:36:15 PM
Jai Sai Master!

I understand, quite well, your situation uttamgaru, since we ourselves are contending with a lightning of 2 and half years (the son of Vedakka). This is a dilemma that we also had. He is very interested in playing and eats quite less. And some days, he eats alright, but for weeks on end, he takes just 300 ml of milk per day and not more. The thought of coercing him to eat more occured, but Amma is reluctant. She says vehemently that the kids eat exactly what they want, how much they want and when they want, but She also agrees that this kid neglects food a little bit.

The solution we came to, so far, is to try and improve his appetite. Amma is sticking to the fact that the kid should not be given more than he wants, unless he is becoming weak. And then too, trying to give him nutrition in the little he eats and improving his appetite are given priority. We also do all the tricks like playing etc., to make him chow down , but we prefer that he eats consciously, rather than absent mindedly.

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I am bad only at the time of feeding.
Arguably, this is the worst thing you can do. :) Feeding time is feeding time. And the impressions gathered during that time, and the satiation felt after eating are really crucial later on in life. The satiation and satisfaction that the kid gets from solving his hunger is very important for the kid to feel (although 2 and half years is a little too young even for that).

One trick that works most of the time is that the kids love to imitate, and if they see us relishing food, they would relish it too. This works all the way up, until we are quite old (like 35). Appearing as if we are relishing it, and letting the kid see that and ask for food is the first thing that needs to be tried, because just after a few tries, the kid picks up the hint and continues it afterwards.

Also, if the kid is not feeling well in the stomach with digestion, he might not have the appetite. Forcing him to eat then is like shoving more raw material down an already loaded machine. Thus, it needs to be avoided as much as possible. Healthy play time and sleep time contribute a lot to appetite, and also, the kid is quite attractive to various infections (which boost his immunity) and so, in my humble non-medical view, its alright to see ups and downs in the kids diet. Good homeopathic (claasical) treatment can set a lot of things right, just like they do with teertha charan.

Playing bhajans instead of rhymes is highly encouraged, unless the kid is asking too earnestly for rhymes. Try to generate interest in bhajans by singing and clapping along side the audio.

Last but not least, no baby in the animal kingdom, other than humans, have this problem. That is a huge clue. Let the kid ask for food. Otherwise, eat infront of him relishing it. Do not offer till he asks. This sets a good pattern that the kid will 'ask' for food when ever he is hungry.

Just a few thoughts.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on February 05, 2012, 09:11:00 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Many thanks Babu garu for sharing the valuable practical tips.

Quote
Arguably, this is the worst thing you can do. Smiley Feeding time is feeding time. And the impressions gathered during that time, and the satiation felt after eating are really crucial later on in life. The satiation and satisfaction that the kid gets from solving his hunger is very important for the kid to feel (although 2 and half years is a little too young even for that).

I agree completely Babu garu. I think I lack the patience I am supposed to show. I have to improve myself in this area.

Quote
One trick that works most of the time is that the kids love to imitate, and if they see us relishing food, they would relish it too. This works all the way up, until we are quite old (like 35). Appearing as if we are relishing it, and letting the kid see that and ask for food is the first thing that needs to be tried, because just after a few tries, the kid picks up the hint and continues it afterwards.

We like this idea. We practice to certain extent.We all sit together and eat. One thing we saw in other kids and even in our son also is keeping the food in their mouth for long time without chewing or swallowing.

Quote
Playing bhajans instead of rhymes is highly encouraged, unless the kid is asking too earnestly for rhymes. Try to generate interest in bhajans by singing and clapping along side the audio.

We will follow this Babu garu.

Quote
Healthy play time and sleep time contribute a lot to appetite, and also, the kid is quite attractive to various infections (which boost his immunity) and so, in my humble non-medical view, its alright to see ups and downs in the kids diet. Good homeopathic (classical) treatment can set a lot of things right, just like they do with teertha charan.

Babu garu, please share about the homeopathic (classical) treatment if it is possible.

One thing we notice is kids bring lot of discipline to the parents.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on February 06, 2012, 08:44:37 AM
Jai Sai Master.

Dear Guru Bandhus,

There is a concept of one parent showing affection and one parent staying strict with the kids. Usually mother takes the soft role and father takes the tough role. When I mentioned bad earlier I meant strictness or some hard talk when kid stays mischievous for long time. I am sure the best thing to do is both the parents remain caring and loving to the kids and they develop the positive attitude. But sometimes it does need some strictness. Is it a good idea one parent take that role or both the parents remain strict?

Any comments?

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on February 06, 2012, 01:02:03 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Yes, this is correct. But there is more to it. I shall I write more soon.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on February 06, 2012, 04:08:57 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Thanks Babu garu. Looks forward to the discussion. This is what is helping us a lot - discussing and applying the best from what we learn.

Just came across this situation where I see myself one side do not be want to be tough but one side I am forced to be tough. Parenting is a very important phase in one's life while the kid is at the stage of learning everything for the first time. I am looking at the harmony I can bring into the 'strict' part of a father. I just think how the kid looks at me while I am talking tough. Will he develop some inhibitions or will he take it naturally and understand my intentions. Master garu explains something relates to this in Sainatha Prabhodamrutam. I want to learn the essence what Master garu explained once again with the focus in the practical application and practice as much as I can.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaimasterDevotee on February 06, 2012, 08:18:37 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Quote
But sometimes it does need some strictness. Is it a good idea one parent take that role or both the parents remain strict?


Yes it does need some restriction, especially when they do mischievous disorganised things. But i dont think its a good idea that both the parents yell at the same time. Being a mother I take the softer role, but i try to explain her in a more understandable way, where she is going wrong and what made her father that mad. I will ask her to say sorry to her father, there ends the matter. The same applies to both cases. At times we(parents) out of our frustration  assume that she is going wrong, during those moments we both whole heartedly say sorry to her.  :)

When she bring her lunch box as it is, I really go mad and stop talking to her, that is a bigger punishment to her....after a while we will talk about that issue, i try to explain her what are the possible immediate side effects ect, if she completely avoid her lunch and play a lot. When they understand that they will become more responsible that any one else.

Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on February 06, 2012, 09:03:05 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Dear Lalitha garu,

Thanks for sharing your views. I liked it both the parents working combined so that kid wont get hurt. We are trying to follow the same with our boy.

I am looking at the ways a father can do the 'tough' part of saying when the kid doesnt want to do something say for instance eating because for a toddler eating is the only expectation that worries parents. I was thinking I might be little harsh by repeatedly asking my son to eat. Anyone can say hey he is after all a toddler and dont expect too much from him. I am little worried about myself that it may become a habit for me to keep acting as a strict father. I am just trying to learn about the gentle caringness of the 'tough' part of the parenting. It is more of a self preparation.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Raghuram on February 07, 2012, 12:04:38 AM
jai saimaster!

I don't have any experience here. But would like to share few things.
I know it is very difficult to feed the kid because I did that too for my brother's kids few times. The kids are too active and always want to play. The thought that they have to ask to eat does not seem to occur. Or may be it does and it just shows up as crying for something else. They even want to play while eating too. When they are with me, most of the times they would eat without much problems if I'm playing the rhymes. From my observation (I have not done much observation in this aspect though..), I found that the mother just does not have enough time to spend with the kids for their food time. Especially when the husband is out of home (which is normal for most part of the day), the wife is too busy with the houe hold work. She has to clean the house (and is quite a work with kids in house), clean the utencils, prepare food and do all this while taking care of the kids, their bathing etc. It is getting more and more difficult for the mother to do so much work. While all these are important, the more important activity of feeding the kid  is not getting enough time, I feel. We must find ways to make other things easier and simpler while not totally comprising the quality of it.
Just my two paise!

But I feel this is not much of a problem if there is an absolute passion in upbringing the child. Not one particular child, but passion towards the humanity, part of which is upbringing the child. My two and a half paise!!

jai saimaster!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Ananth on February 07, 2012, 01:06:10 AM
Jai Sai Master, Babu garu..
Jai Sai Master, Sai Bandhus..

Raghuram garu, Jai Sai Master!

I think you will be a great dad. :-)

And yes, I think you are correct. I myself have force-fed my kids many times. When we passionately get to their level of "understanding" the world, then getting them to eat is "walk in the park".

Very good observation.

I can't seem to recollect which thread it was but Babu garu shared a great story with Himself and Amma garu. Babu garu went to a movie and Amma garu did not talk to Him for some days. Babu garu said in this forum that whenever He looked at Amma garu, more than the "anger" it was the "hurt" that pierced His heart.

Somehow, if we can let the kids know that we are hurt by their behaviour, they might get a clue and maybe without our work they will learn from their mistakes. For that to happen, first we should not do any mistakes :) which is altogether a different proposition :) and I wonder what will be the hurt on their hearts and faces when we do the mistakes.

Best Regards,
Jai Sai Master!

Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on February 07, 2012, 04:43:09 AM
Jai Sai Master.

Quote
For that to happen, first we should not do any mistakes Smiley which is altogether a different proposition Smiley and I wonder what will be the hurt on their hearts and faces when we do the mistakes.

Ananth garu,

I play with my kid 95% of the time and all of a sudden I act tough to him during his feeding time. It is hard to us also as elders. We are trying to learn the best ways. We tried what Babu garu suggested singing a bhajan by clapping together. It was a good experience. Another thing we tried is if we show him any new book or kids stuff he plays with it and eats well. Not sure whether this is a good thing to do because we are trying to forget about the feeding part itself.

This is what Master garu mentions about the negative impressions on kids minds:

http://www.saibharadwaja.org/books/readbook.aspx?book=Sri%20Sainathaprabodhamruthamu&page=31

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on September 15, 2012, 03:58:13 PM
Jai Sai Master.

We are thinking of the effect of TV on kids of 3-4 years. We are watching only kids oriented programs with our kid. Strictly not watching any programs other than kids. We have set time slot of 30-45 minutes for watching the TV and happy with implementation so far.

It is becoming tough not to watch the programs while having dinner. One major reason is we are getting tired at the end of the day and turning TV on as a tool to mesmerize our kid to eat. Know for sure this is not correct. We are trying to balance by completely switching off the TV when we are relaxed and have the patience to tell stories or talk about something that interests our son. We love to do this more. But as it happens, it requires additional one hour to complete dinner. This balancing is going on well for some time. But what we find is we tend to be tired at the end of the day, switching on the TV to avoid our impatient interaction with our son. We dont like this but falling for it. How are you all doing with your kids? Any fresh ideas you are trying to keep yourselves and your kids away from TV.

Back to what programs we are watching, our 30-45 minutes on TV takes these programs almost same every day

'Guess how much I love you'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JecKdOO7PyU

The above we love to watch because it is about animals and they show about nature, seasons and good stories about animals behavior. We ourselves love to watch this program.

Next one is from sproutonline. This comes on TV.

http://www.sproutonline.com/kids/videos-lobby/

especially Wibbly Pig and the kids favorite Caillou

This is a nice character that keeps watching the surroundings, elders, keep learning and comes out as a winner at the end. Many kids learn about day to day lessons from this character. There is good as kids learn about good behavior. At the same time we think this character may have influence on the kids minds. This program comes for 15 minutes every day. We love this program too and taking it for granted we can watch. Anyone please share your ideas.

What we find another promising thing is whenever we take our kid to Playground at the nearest park and play for one hour, dinner time goes very fast as it is expected  :). As Raghuram garu mentioned earlier, it all depends on us, our free time.

Please feel free to share your thoughts. What we notice at the end of the conversation is it leaves a positive result which we can try to implement that helps our kids.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on September 15, 2012, 04:10:03 PM
Jai Sai Master.

What are the effects of visuals on the kids? Is an iSlate a good invention or or complete diversion for the kids minds?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk8055kULjM&feature=related

We used our mind to learn alphabets. iSlate teach the same with more visuals. What do you think about this invention? Guess iSlate solar version will be available soon.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Swayam on September 15, 2012, 06:00:13 PM
Jai SaiMaster

Quote
It is becoming tough not to watch the programs while having dinner. One major reason is we are getting tired at the end of the day and turning TV on as a tool to mesmerize our kid to eat. Know for sure this is not correct. We are trying to balance by completely switching off the TV when we are relaxed and have the patience to tell stories or talk about something that interests our son. We love to do this more. But as it happens, it requires additional one hour to complete dinner. This balancing is going on well for some time. But what we find is we tend to be tired at the end of the day, switching on the TV to avoid our impatient interaction with our son. We dont like this but falling for it. How are you all doing with your kids? Any fresh ideas you are trying to keep yourselves and your kids away from TV.

Ah!, uttampallavi garu you are reminding my initial days with my son.He used to take min 2-3 hrs and we need to roam all over the street.Entire street knows his dinner time. One quick thing I can suggest is both of you don't sit with him. One of you sit and other relax and later on swap your roles. Yes with TV we can even feed grass to them, it will go in, sorry for  my choice of words. There were times when my son used to say enough and few spoons still left in the bowl, we used to beg him to complete and divert him with tv and used to complete the bowl and after the program he used to realize that he has finished the bowl and used to cry and say that "put those morsels back in the bowl"  :).

The days are still same now, now its being all one man show at home.By the time I reach home it will be 6.45 pm and he will also feel sleepy and I have to switch on TV. Sometimes I play Hanuman movie, sometimes Saibab(old one), mayabazaar and sometimes he ends up watching his cartoon channels.Ah all these movies are still running successfully in my house :-\. I bought Master Ek's balasiksha and yet to teach anything to him from that.

All this leaves my very guilty :( . Sorry you asked for solutions. Iam poring out my problems. Hmm.

Thanks for sharing those youtube vedios. From past 5 days he is down with high fever(homeopathy is testing my patience) and this youtube will be of some change instead of cartoons.

Jai SaiMaster
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on September 15, 2012, 06:52:17 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Thanks very much Swayam garu. Thanks for sharing about your son. They are sweet. We can imagine that tender age. Each year is different. Innocence turns to excitement with each new thing happening. Excitement turns to mischievousness. Mischievousness turns to quiet learning. Quiet learning turns to maturity. Maturity turns to wisdom in the presence of a able teacher. What a tremendous value human life has.

When we watched with our son for the first time, we forgot about ourselves that we are the parents. When we heard last words of Bignutbrownhare "I love you right upto the Moon and back", we imagined they are the words of Master garu to us. We think how much we love Master garu but Master garu reminds us how much love His is every time. Arent we all the smallest kids ever in front of Baba, Master garu, Amma garu. Whenever we listen to Master garu through Books reminds us how we are remaining as small kids.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on September 15, 2012, 07:35:40 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Swayam garu,

Quote
From past 5 days he is down with high fever(homeopathy is testing my patience) and this youtube will be of some change instead of cartoons.

Doctors where we live dont suggest any medicine till the fever is say 103 or 104. It is painful to see the kid suffering but Doctors advises to give more liquids during this time. It is challenging to do the same. It is nice to know you are trying homeopathy.

Wish your kid recovers soon. Please tell him he has a loving brother here who says I love you brother and guess how much.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Swayam on September 15, 2012, 07:57:25 PM
Jai SaiMaster

Thanks UttamPallavi garu. He says hi to his little brother :).Yes doctor said the samething, but we don't have
the calmness of a doctor as we are parents :-\.

Jai SaiMaster
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on September 15, 2012, 09:06:54 PM
Jai Sai Master!

I can very much understand your situation, and almost identify with it! Same problem here with Teertha-charan, and he has to be shown videos on youtube for him to quiet down and eat.

I certainly do not have a 'solution'. But my thought always runs towards one thing. What would people have done when there was no TV or laptops? Kids were kids are kids. There's got to be some other way to do this, right? Seems that some kind of "showing the moon and tell a story" technique was used.

But the real way, i think, to think about this is to think of why the kid does not want to eat without being distracted. It seems to be a problem with the 'system' somewhere.. might not be with the kid alone, i mean. some where something is triggering this, and almost ALL kids are like this these days, which is very very strange, since no pup needs a TV to drink milk, nor does a calf.

I do not have a solution, partly because I could not investigate practically. May be we should all investigate together.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on September 16, 2012, 02:09:44 AM
Jai Sai Master.

That is very correct Babu garu. Thinking about our younger days, we ate whatever was given sometimes with the fear of our fathers. They were like tigers. If we did not eat, we were given punishment( baaga debbalu, mottikayalu padevi). Mothers used to tell I will tell Nanna, thats it. Now also what we notice is our son eats 50% with our stories and 50% our stories gets diluted. Giving new toys may fill the next 50%. But on a daily basis, switching to TV is taken as an alternative. We are not that determined especially during week days. We read about Madalasa teaching her sons about the moral stories at an young age in Dattatraya charitra in the Magazine. It puts us in shame. Are we deviating our son , are we not giving the right things to make a ideal human being. What would have Sri Anantacharyulu garu would have taught Master garu? At least thinking like hope we gain little more determination to spend more meaningful time even during week days.

Quote
What would people have done when there was no TV or laptops? Kids were kids are kids. There's got to be some other way to do this, right? Seems that some kind of "showing the moon and tell a story" technique was used.

Imagining if we are living in Dwarakamayi with Baba or with Master garu and there is no TV, what would we do? If Baba says dont show TV and make it as niyamam? We try tonight and try our best without showing TV. We share the results tomorrow.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on September 17, 2012, 05:16:21 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Right now, im thinking of looking at books (if there are any.. usually there is little research on anything that is critically important) which might talk about how aboriginals or other tribes bring up their young ones, their food and play habbits, etc.

If you find any such, do let me know.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on September 18, 2012, 07:33:32 AM
Jai Sai Master.

Thanks Swayam garu. Your suggestion helped us.

Quote
One quick thing I can suggest is both of you don't sit with him. One of you sit and other relax and later on swap your roles.

How is your son doing Swayam garu. Another thing, we usually apply karpooram to the head whenever there is fever with cold. It helps to relieve the breathing trouble and helps to breath.

We tried different things last two days. I tried with small plastic grinder as a toy. Our son somehow loves kitchen related articles. We guess one day he may become a good chef.  :) . Pallavi tried with a Book which we brought from library. He was engaged with two things and enjoyed food. It was very smooth. Today I gave two tooth brushes to play and we had lot of fun while having dinner. We learnt the value of simple things. We did not switch on TV today. Feels like an achievement really!

Babu garu, we will try to search for the Books about aboriginals and other tribes and their way of living. We usually go to library on Saturdays. We will look for the Books.

We have very vague idea about the way people lived 3-4 centuries back. We have visited an arboretum where they preserved that century's articles and created the homes. Source of happiness was purely from each other and from the nature.

Wish to learn more.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Swayam on September 18, 2012, 05:19:33 PM
Jai SaiMaster

Quote
Thanks Swayam garu. Your suggestion helped us.

Quote
One quick thing I can suggest is both of you don't sit with him. One of you sit and other relax and later on swap your roles.

How is your son doing Swayam garu.

Good to know that it helped you.Thank you, he is doing fine now.It turned out to be typhoid in initial stages.
Thanks to Master EK gari chain of homeo clinics.Looking back, Iam  bit surprised how come I was not tempted to use allopathy and its jet speed way of attempts to cure.Thanks to Baba/Mastergaru.
He lost good amount of weight.Wonder how to boost/build his immunity.Need to check whats this probiotic stuff in markets these days.

Quote
Another thing, we usually apply karpooram to the head whenever there is fever with cold. It helps to relieve the breathing trouble and helps to breath.
He is nearing 10 so can't apply to head. I used to mix karpooram + warm coconut oil and apply on chest. But as he is asthmatic, any strong odour triggers asthma.Once for some period I didn't use agarbathi in my home.Once while going accross the usual shop where I buy agarbathi, I thought to myself that, 'Baba it has been long time I lighted agarbathi in your presence'. I came home and was surprised to see my son sitting infront of Baba photo holding a lighted agarbathi !!.

Quote
We tried different things last two days. I tried with small plastic grinder as a toy. Our son somehow loves kitchen related articles. We guess one day he may become a good chef.  Smiley . Pallavi tried with a Book which we brought from library. He was engaged with two things and enjoyed food. It was very smooth. Today I gave two tooth brushes to play and we had lot of fun while having dinner. We learnt the value of simple things. We did not switch on TV today. Feels like an achievement really!

Way to go !!, CONGRATS you should treat each other for this achievement.

The lifestyles and energy levels of our parents are far higher than what we have today and so they used to engage kids without tv etc.
As we are also attracted to tv, it makes it more tough to teach to kids.

Jai SaiMaster
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Ananth on September 18, 2012, 09:15:43 PM
Jai Sai Master, Babu garu..
Jai Sai Master, Sai Bandhus..

Swayam garu, Jai Sai Master! Wish your son a speedy recovery.

Quote
Need to check whats this probiotic stuff in markets these days.

Pro-biotic stuff is nothing but our good old natural curd which we, in north america, call natural yogurt.

A lot of people have sweetened yogurt thinking they will get good bacteria in their gut. Actually, I feel the sugar in the yogurt will decrease its effectiveness to a great deal. And people never liked natural yogurt because of its lack of taste or because of its sour taste.

But purest form of pro-biotic through yogurt is Natural yogurt taken first thing in the morning. Morning times, our guts are mostly empty.That's the first chance to clear off bad bacteria. Some good practices to clear them off are water drinking and good breathing. Then 3 or 4 spoons of natural yogurt will give anyone with fever or anyone coming out of fever, some strength to fight the bad in the body.

Something that worked for my 8 year and 3 year kids is warm milk with pinch of turmeric powder for regular fever and cough. It gave them relief.

And anyway, you are following Homeopathy, which is very good. I am happy to hear from you that you stuck to homeopathy. I don't mean to be an allopathy-basher, but I am trying to get there myself. I am avoiding any allopathy for small bodily problems like common cold, slight fever, cough etc both for me and my family.

Best Regards,
Jai Sai Master!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: aananya on September 18, 2012, 11:15:29 PM
Sir,

 I live in USA and was looking for a good homeopath to contact for my health issues. Can you please advise how to contact Master EK gari's homeo clinics?

Thanks,
Aananya.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Swayam on September 19, 2012, 10:39:27 AM
Jai SaiMaster

Aananya garu,

The below link gives list of all Master EK gari homeo clinics.

http://masterek.org/Images/EKHomeoAdress2012.pdf

The first 3 entries are those of His sons.

My doc is in Tirupati. I personally meet him whenever I come down to Tirupati.
Rest of the time, I call him on phone and tell him the condition, he tells medicine and I buy it in Bangalore, as I stay in Bangalore and Tirupati is my native.

Iam not sure if they have any clinics in USA. You can dial any of the first 3 phone numbers and find out and discuss with His sons.

Jai SaiMaster
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Swayam on September 19, 2012, 02:33:14 PM
Jai Sai Master, Babu garu..
Jai Sai Master, Sai Bandhus..

Swayam garu, Jai Sai Master! Wish your son a speedy recovery.

Quote
Need to check whats this probiotic stuff in markets these days.

Pro-biotic stuff is nothing but our good old natural curd which we, in north america, call natural yogurt.

A lot of people have sweetened yogurt thinking they will get good bacteria in their gut. Actually, I feel the sugar in the yogurt will decrease its effectiveness to a great deal. And people never liked natural yogurt because of its lack of taste or because of its sour taste.

But purest form of pro-biotic through yogurt is Natural yogurt taken first thing in the morning. Morning times, our guts are mostly empty.That's the first chance to clear off bad bacteria. Some good practices to clear them off are water drinking and good breathing. Then 3 or 4 spoons of natural yogurt will give anyone with fever or anyone coming out of fever, some strength to fight the bad in the body.

Something that worked for my 8 year and 3 year kids is warm milk with pinch of turmeric powder for regular fever and cough. It gave them relief.

And anyway, you are following Homeopathy, which is very good. I am happy to hear from you that you stuck to homeopathy. I don't mean to be an allopathy-basher, but I am trying to get there myself. I am avoiding any allopathy for small bodily problems like common cold, slight fever, cough etc both for me and my family.

Best Regards,
Jai Sai Master!

Jai SaiMaster

Ananth garu, Jai Sai Master

Thanks much.Giving yogurt, driniking lots of water on empty stomach...yes will do that.

Along with turmeric powder with milk, I also add little pepper as pepper helps in absorbing turmeric better.

We are all mostly born and brought up with allopathy treatment and its mindset and expect same quick results from  homeo which adds to our restlessness when we consider homeo and do not get immediate results.

Uttampallavi garu,

Yes I too read out leelas from Master gari books to my son.
As I listen to Master gari speeches one thing I notice is, he explains the leelas with very great enthu and adds some more minor details around the leela and make it more interesting when we are listening to it and that really builds up a tempo. Trying to imbibe a billionth percentile of the same style of describing leelas when i do with my son.The leela as such may be just 2-3 lines in SaiLeelamrutam, but Master garu is great in describing the same in more elaborate way. You can observe this in the speech 'Baba Jeevithamu - Kalichedu'.

Jai SaiMaster
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: SaiVarsha on September 20, 2012, 01:42:52 AM
Hi,

Can some one please repost the links of Sai Master Gari thoughts on pillala pempakam.

Thanks,
Varsha
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on October 07, 2012, 05:05:58 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Dear Guru Bandhus, Happy Sunday. Just the word Sunday makes us to jump with joy. Is there anyone who dont like Sundays?  :)

Recently we started noticing our son saying 'This is mine", "This is my toy". When in a group with other kids, he likes to play with his toys. If some other kid takes it he says it's mine. We noticed he asks for it, watch for some time just standing. When we tell him to play with some other toy, he runs and plays with another toy. He is not sharing it but he takes it as it is and moves on with other toys. He keeps his eye on the same toy and looks for an opportunity to play with it. We see some moderate thinking in him so far. 

Gone through some of the Parenting tips and noticed it is quiet a natural development at this age. They develop possessiveness as a matter of security and as Parents we have to teach them to share. Of course they also advise not to make a big deal about it as they learn when they grow up and all of them advises not to punish the kid for not sharing.

We are just thinking this is the best time of a Child's age we should teach about the value of sharing. Dear Guru Bandhus, any useful thoughts?

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Dwarakanath on October 07, 2012, 05:13:02 PM
Jai Sai Master!

Start teaching him how to share by sharing stuff he does not value that much. Like giving bananas to all the kids/adults by his hand (while we first start the process by giving them ourselves, we call him and make him give it) and then commend him highly for it. Keep doing this, while during other times tell him about stories of sharing, and stories of dispassion, like how karna used to give, sibi chakravarti story, etc.

Do this certain amount of times, and after that, telling him how stuff is there to be used and not to be kept. That should do the trick. As Amma says "pallu, choclatelu pillacheta andariki ippinchaali.. vallu chustundaga manam ivvaali.. ala chestu unte vallaki telustundi".

If we keep on doing it, and also take care not to show too much possessiveness ourselves infront of them, and at the same time teaching them stories of tyagam and vairagyam, it becomes almost natural for them. As skinner showed, behavior can be created or destroyed.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on October 07, 2012, 05:47:10 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Thanks Babu garu. It reminds us about reading the stories of Karna, Sibhi chakravarti.

Quote
Start teaching him how to share by sharing stuff he does not value that much.
Do this certain amount of times, and after that, telling him how stuff is there to be used and not to be kept. That should do the trick.

Very helpful. We will try to practice and explain. Many Thanks Babu garu.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on March 02, 2013, 06:54:20 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Dear Guru Bandhus,

We are starting to teach our little boy to read Telugu. We find this website interesting to start with

http://telugu4kids.com/

Swayam garu, guess your son must have learnt Kannada. Did you give a try at teaching Telugu? Ananth garu, I am sure you must have started with your boy. Is your daughter teaching her little brother. Kids learn from each other quickly rather than through us. This is how our son picked up English without any of our effort. Every day he is trying some new word that amazes us. Right now we are not able to dedicate time to join our son to a group of kids for picking up reading abilities in Telugu. Looking at ways to teach at home.

Please share your experiences, tips.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Ananth on March 02, 2013, 10:21:24 PM
Jai Sai Master, Babu garu..
Jai Sai Master, Sai Bandhus..

Dearest Uttam garu, Jai Sai Master!

Thanks for sharing that link. Yes, my son who is 4 years old is going to pre-school twice a day. And my daughter is almost like a second mom for him. She takes very good care of him. They both kept a small photo of Baba and Master on the wall and and twice or thrice a week they sing Baba's songs.

For my daugther, we just did not care about English Uttam garu. Somehoe instict told me that kids will pick up English as they go out to regular schools. So, we followed a three step process. Teach "a" "aa" "e" "ee".........read one word from Sai Leelamrutam. And show some old cartoon videos of telugu. The third one is silly but we couldn't help it. We wanted her to get a feeling of Telugu irrespective of meaning.

This is continued for the last 4 years. She is now 8 and she is very comfortable reading one page every day from Sai Leelamrutam. Because on Feb 9th Babu garu (or was it Vedamma garu) also mentioned that Balala Sai Leelamrutam, if completed before October 2013 for 3 times, then it will be good. So, she has started parayana of Balala Sai Leelamrutam.

As for the regular grantham, she reads and she understand most words. But sometimes, she struggles with the context. At that point, I will try my best to explain to her with various anecdotes as presented by Sri Master garu.

Now coming to my son, first thing is, HE IS A BRAT!! Sometimes, he does not listen to us. I am highly doubtful whether our approach to our daughter will work for him, because he has already started talking gibberish english. He talks telugu in english style and we keep discouraging him. Because we are of pretty strong opinion that kids will pick up the common language (English in our case) very easily but not the mother-tongue because of various outside influences.

So, we don't know. The only time they watch TV is when I put the songs of our sadgurus. Every saturday my son watches Thomas and my daughter watches Sampoorna Ramayanam (She just loves it....and I have no idea how many times she has already watched).

Lots of challenges Uttam garu. But I am enjoying my fatherhood and I am trying my best to incorporate every single lesson that Master has offered in His wonderful books. I just pray Baba that our kids.....all the Guru Bandhus' kids follow and turn out to be the persons that are a beacon to all.

Regards,
Jai Sai Master!

PS: I and my wife still watch TV once/twice a week but after my kids are asleep. So, on a Friday and/or Saturday, we watch TV from 11 PM to 2 AM :-) I just wanted to share this weakness of mine so that it can stare me right in my face. :-)
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Swayam on March 02, 2013, 11:36:58 PM
Jai SaiMaster

Dear Uttam garu

Well far from Kannada Iam trying to teach my son Telugu itself. Kannada he might pick from his friends.
In telugu Iam yet to teach him vattulu. AS of now I read out to him Balala Sai Leelamrutam.He is able to read the title of the chapters if there are not any vattulu.
Every summer holidays he practices Telugu and once summer is over, he looses touch. I need to see how it goes this time.

Thanks much for sharing the link.

I want to teach him the Bhajans, especially the ones kids sing during important events in Nagole.But I don't have the lyrics :(.

Good job Ananth garu, Keep it up :)

Jai SaiMaster
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on March 03, 2013, 06:38:55 AM
Jai Sai Master.

Thank you very much Ananth garu, Swayam garu.

That is very inspiring Ananth garu. The biggest turning point in my life is Sai Leelamrutam paarayana.Knowing that your daughter is able to read Balala Sai Leelamrutam is giving us lot of confidence.

It is a gradual process for kids to pick up reading ability. Mothers are always kind and teach the kids the best. Father also has bigger responsibility.  :) I had to change my attitude almost every week as I notice my son growing. I share father version of my experience.

Usually we do Paarayana of two or three paragraphs every night. That is the time my son comes and sits in my lap. He is almost tired from jumping, running and ready to sleep.  It is a 10 minutes time in silence sitting in front of Baba, Master garu, Amma garu. My son goes through Ramayana book with pictures just turning each page looking at the pictures. Now he recognizes Rama, Sita.

Every night, just before going to sleep he asks me or Pallavi to read one Book. My son loves us to read stories for him. It started with Pallavi reading Bhakta Prahlada Book. Added to this Book, now a days we read kids Books with trains, animal characters he brings from School. Once we complete it, he keeps looking at the Books for few more minutes and sleeps. This is the time we chant Datta namam or Sai namam or Arunachala Siva for few minutes.

Another reading time is at the time of doing Puja in the evening. After Pallavi completes Puja, I go to take arati and asks my son to repeat Sri Guru Geeta slokas after me. Some times he loves to play. I stop everything and play with him. We continued this for few months. One day while reading Slokas he said 'idi bagundi' when reading one of the Slokas (||Manasa vacha karmana..||). I asked him whether he want to repeat the sloka, he said yes. This continued almost every time we read Sri Guru Geeta. What makes us happy is he likes reading. Slowly one day he asked me touching the letters in one of the Slokas, 'ikaada?'. I told him no and pointed to the right place. He stops me, sometimes he push me to stop reading as he is slowly byhearting the Slokas and he himself completes first 3-4 slokas.  With this regular practice at a definite time every day, my son is introduced to Paarayana Books. This year we are looking to teach him Telugu alphabets.

Swayam garu, all the best to you. We also like to teach our son the Bhajans kids sings at Nagole. They are easy to sing. One of the Bhajans we listened in the presence of Amma garu reads like this 'Avadhuta chinata Saayi... atmananda Saayi..' (may not be exact words). It was on a Kartika Paurnami day under the moon light, outside all the kids sat in front of Amma garu and sang with many lights (in the Pramidalu lit by each Guru Bandhu). This time on February 9th we were ready to remember Kids Bhajan. Did you see the lyric?

Quote
PS: I and my wife still watch TV once/twice a week but after my kids are asleep. So, on a Friday and/or Saturday, we watch TV from 11 PM to 2 AM :-)
Ananth garu, slowly with the time we can easily overcome this. We used to watch commercial movies till few years back. But as we listened to the negatives effects of them during our conversations here and our personal observations, we almost stopped or become very careful with TV. One thing we can share is as we both respect Sri Chittore Nagaiah garu, we started watching Bhakta Potana many times as and when we felt like watching movies or TV. Once we watch that movie we hardly felt urge to watch any commercial movie.

March is already here with one more Spring season. Ready to explore the nature along our son.  :)

May the Master bless us all. 

Jai Sai Master.   
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Sairamalakshmi on March 03, 2013, 09:58:34 AM
Jai Sai Master!!

Guru bandhus Ananth garu, Swayam garu and Uttampallavi garu

Feeling so happy after reading your posts about the kids.


For my daugther, we just did not care about English Uttam garu. Somehoe instict told me that kids will pick up English as they go out to regular schools.

Yes Ananth garu, even we are thinking in the same way. We just want to make sure that he reads and writes telugu. He is just 19 months old. He just says Baba, amma ,naanna ,ammamma and taatha for now.

At this point of time, I ask him to keep Namasthae to Baba 2 times a day and I sing Baba songs while putting him to sleep.I do thank and offer Baba(As a prayer) before feeding him.

Can you please suggest in what ways can I tell more about Baba to him.

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Swayam on March 03, 2013, 10:22:10 AM
Jai Sai Master.

Knowing that your daughter is able to read Balala Sai Leelamrutam is giving us lot of confidence.

Usually we do Paarayana of two or three paragraphs every night. That is the time my son comes and sits in my lap. He is almost tired from jumping, running and ready to sleep.  It is a 10 minutes time in silence sitting in front of Baba, Master garu, Amma garu. My son goes through Ramayana book with pictures just turning each page looking at the pictures. Now he recognizes Rama, Sita.

Every night, just before going to sleep he asks me or Pallavi to read one Book. My son loves us to read stories for him. It started with Pallavi reading Bhakta Prahlada Book. Added to this Book, now a days we read kids Books with trains, animal characters he brings from School. Once we complete it, he keeps looking at the Books for few more minutes and sleeps. This is the time we chant Datta namam or Sai namam or Arunachala Siva for few minutes.

Another reading time is at the time of doing Puja in the evening. After Pallavi completes Puja, I go to take arati and asks my son to repeat Sri Guru Geeta slokas after me. Some times he loves to play. I stop everything and play with him. We continued this for few months. One day while reading Slokas he said 'idi bagundi' when reading one of the Slokas (||Manasa vacha karmana..||). I asked him whether he want to repeat the sloka, he said yes. This continued almost every time we read Sri Guru Geeta. What makes us happy is he likes reading. Slowly one day he asked me touching the letters in one of the Slokas, 'ikaada?'. I told him no and pointed to the right place. He stops me, sometimes he push me to stop reading as he is slowly byhearting the Slokas and he himself completes first 3-4 slokas.  With this regular practice at a definite time every day, my son is introduced to Paarayana Books. This year we are looking to teach him Telugu alphabets.


Jai SaiMaster

Quiet Inspiring, thanks Ananth garu and Uttam garu for sharing.
Yes I too follow that trick of watching some good movies whenever feel like watching TV.

Jai SaiMaster
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on March 03, 2013, 06:55:22 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Ramalakshmi garu, we have not yet started teaching our son about Baba, Master garu exclusively. At this jumping age, he wants to teach us more than he can listen to us.  :) What we are trying to do is prepare our home suitable for our son to ask us questions that arise in him and that is the time we will start explaining him from Baba's teachings. What we learnt so far is toddlers learn a lot from watching. As we practice, we are already teaching our son a lot. Only one thing we started is reciting Guru Geeta slokas and asking our son to repeat. This is to make him to sit infront of Baba, Master garu for some time. We thought if he doesnt like it, we wanted to wait. As we shared earlier, he started liking reciting slokas.

We share what we learnt from Guru Bandhus at Nagole. Many thanks to them  who have explained about raising kids which they said they listened from Babu garu. What they said is 'Think you both are not the only two living in the home along with the kid. There is Baba, Master garu, Amma garu also to your son. Kid can show new dresses to Baba or new toys to Baba. For everything, Kid can feel the presence of Baba'.

Ramalakshmi garu, think Baba as our Grand father (to the kids), Master garu, Amma garu as our parents(in real sense too as They have given new life by teaching us the moral values) and we are all living together. Grand children talk a lot with grand parents followed by parents. Usually before going to School, kids dont forget to say Thatha vellostanu, sayantram vachaka aadukundamu, sarena. Everything they share with elders. That bond of love develops so naturally between Kids, Grand parents and Parents. Now Baba, Master garu, Amma garu are not living with us in human form to show our kids.They live through Paarayana.Sri Rama, Sita, Hanuma are not living with us still Kids know about them through stories. Till Kids can stop and ask about their Grand parents, Parents, we try to do all our duties like offering water early in the morning for drinking, naivedyam, doing puja, giving mangala arati, offering new cloths, keeping vegetables in front of them before keeping in refrigerator, telling before leaving home and Paarayana sitting infront of Them...   

This year we want to take initiative and introduce Baba's kindness through Balala Sai Leelamrutham slowly. Anath gari, Swayam gari experiences are very useful.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on March 03, 2013, 09:46:41 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Ramalakshmi garu,

I share one incident which taught me Mother has wonderful way of telling her kids through nama smarana also.

Usually I give bath to my son on Saturday and Sundays. One day I started giving bath and started singing 'wheels on the bus go round and round'. Immediately my son stopped me and said 'Nanna, sing Datta song'. I asked him what nanna. He said Amma sings that song. Got completely surprised because he just loves wheels on the bus song any time. As I thought about it, my son would have felt more happyness with Datta chant and he has registered that time for listening to his mother singing that chant.

I felt very happy and sang Datta namam. Datta chant sounds like lullaby (self tuned to do nama smarana)

|| Datta Datta Sri Guru Datta Jai Guru Datta Datta Datta ||

Another namam we sing regularly is Om Sainatha jai Guru Bharadwaja jai which our son likes.

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Sairamalakshmi on March 04, 2013, 08:47:40 AM
Jai Sai Master!!

Uttampallavi garu,

Thanks  a lot for sharing your incidents.I am learning a lot.May Master Garu and Amma Garu bless us all !!

Jai Sai Master!!
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on March 16, 2013, 11:14:04 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Dear Guru Bandhus,

Felt useful to have watched this speech which teaches Science in the form of simple toys.

http://www.ted.com/talks/arvind_gupta_turning_trash_into_toys_for_learning.html

Explained in detail here ...

http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/films.html

Jai Sai Master.
Title: Re: Pillala pempakam - Upbringing the next generation
Post by: Saiuttampallavi on December 15, 2013, 06:18:11 PM
Jai Sai Master.

Dear Guru Bandhus,

Kids dont need TV as long as we can fill their time with creative and fun things in their lives. What best we can expect if they also give practical knowledge about Science. Loves every thing mentioned here

http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/toys.html

And they are available in Telugu too.

http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/films.html

Plastic cans, glasses are plenty. Before we recycle them, we can create toys out of them that brings knowledge to the kids in a fun way. Please do share if anyone tries any of these toys.

Jai Sai Master.